"Leaving America"

[NoPat]

And in Portuguese we don't have the word United Statians, we use the word americano/a for people from the US.

...and I call them "Americans" myself, too, and I don't have a problem with that. (them: USA people). It's the way language evolved and I accept it and use it accordingly without worry.

My real problem is with the obtuse, obstinate and stubborn characters (be it from the US, Europe or wherever) who simply refuse to understand the point as seen from the other side of the border.

The point being that someone born in any part of the Americas (North, Central and South) has every right to be called American, and the fact that in the Spanish language that's exactly what the word "American" means, and also the fact that this entire debate revolves around the subtext of arrogance and covert imperialism from the yanqui part that many of you are deliberately refusing to try to understand.

 

[Uncle Dermot]

Yes, this makes no sense at all, you are absolutely right. Should we talk about an economic division then or are we going to get deemed unpolitically correct?

 

[mini]

...and I call them "Americans" myself, too, and I don't have a problem with that. (them: USA people). It's the way language evolved and I accept it and use it accordingly without worry.

My real problem is with the obtuse, obstinate and stubborn characters (be it from the US, Europe or wherever) who simply refuse to understand the point as seen from the other side of the border.

The point being that someone born in any part of the Americas (North, Central and South) has every right to be called American, and the fact that in the Spanish language that's exactly what the word "American" means, and also the fact that this entire debate revolves around the subtext of arrogance and covert imperialism from the yanqui part that many of you are deliberately refusing to try to understand.

We understand that point very well. In fact, I think the point is much better understood outside of the Spanish speaking world then inside. In other languages it is understood the word American has more than one meaning. Spanish speakers either don't understand that or are just being obtuse, obstinate and stubborn.

 

[steveinbsas]

And about complaining in general about everything, the difference is that locals complaining about their own country is standard fare all around the world. A foreigner complaining and moaning rubs the locals the wrong way. Add to the equation the fact that many of these foreigners have a dubious right to reside in the country (to say the least, not to write illegally), and haven't been around for that long, can you blame the locals for being annoyed?

Since this is an expat website I would like to know which "locals" in Argentina are annoyed? The ones who lurk about this forum? What other Argentines know what's being written here? Why should they care?

What are you talking about when you used the expression "dubious right to reside in the country?" If I understand correctly, a foreigner is only living "illegally" in Argentina after a judges so declares. I don't know of any expats who fit that description.

I also wonder what you mean when you use the words "write illegally." Are you also suggesting that some foreigners are breaking any laws when they post here? It just isn't clear from the way you used the expression (in parenthesis).


As I wrote earlier in this thread. I have lived south of the Rio Grande for 10 years. When asked my nationality I always answer, "Norte Americano." It has never annoyed anyone and I never complain about Argentina to Argentine-Americans. I would automatically only "apply" that term to Argentines who had emigrated to the USA...and once they became US citizens I would refer to them as Americans, period.

 

[NoPat]

Since this is an expat website I would like to know which "locals" in Argentina are annoyed?
The ones who lurk about this forum? What other Argentines know what's being written here? Why should they care?

Is that a dig at me? Ouch!

Since this is an issue that takes place in the real world among real people in the city and the country, and outside the confines of this particular website, I refer of course to the locals (inverted commas or not) that have an issue with this subject in every real situation, not just here onscreen.

If you are having a go at myself in particular, the point is… what exactly? That I shouldn't be writing here? That I should refrain to read or take part?

If you have an issue with who's who on the forum, take it to the owners of the website and ask them to change the rules of the forum and its membership. You'll be doing me a favour, believe me.

What are you talking about when you used the expression "dubious right to reside in the country?"

If I understand correctly, a foreigner is only living "illegally" in Argentina after a judges so declares. I don't know of any expats who fit that description.

Oh, yes, I forgot you are the ultimate expert on the subject. You can understand whatever you like, as most people around here already do.

Yet, for the sake of clarity: I am referring to those who are in Argentina in a way that they could never be in a lot of other countries.

People that, were they to try the same border hopping and other tricks in order to reside long term in, say, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or most of Europe, they'd be deported or jailed for doing so, while in Argentina it's all a bit of a joke thanks to the loophole, the lax enforcement or no-enforcement, the lack of strict or clear laws and whatever else that you know better than everybody else. Why I am writing this when you know all about it.

You can of course say (as we all know) that you are in the process of getting your Arg passport, and good on you, but -sorry to break this to you- you are an individual, you are not everybody, you can't talk for the rest. And I bet you are with the tiny minority.

As I wrote earlier in this thread. I have lived south of the Rio Grande for 10 years. When asked my nationality I always answer, "Norte Americano." It has never annoyed anyone

That's because you obviously don't know that, as spoken, the words Norteamericano and Estadounidense are interchangeable terms. You say Norteamericano and you might as well be saying Estadounidense, and sorry for the Canadians and Mexicans but that's the way the language evolved.

It's when Americano comes without the Norte before it that it becomes a whole different story.

Now, since you obviously are determined to (a) be blind to what I've been calling "the other side of the argument" and (b) get hooked on every belligerent thread that you can bite around here, I don't see how this discussion can possibly have a point or a beneficial effect.

Unless it is to prove my point about how some have their minds shut and sealed when it comes to seeing an argument from more than one side.

and I never complain about Argentina to Argentine-Americans.

Great. I bet loads do. When was this about you alone?

I would automatically only "apply" that term to Argentines who had emigrated to the USA...and once they became US citizens I would refer to them as Americans, period.

Whatever, in the end it's all about language and you will be using it whichever the way you want, regardless of what others say. And the length and repetitive nature of this debate demonstrates we are all wasting our time.

 

[steveinbsas]

Since this is an issue that takes place in the real world among real people in the city and the country, and outside the confines of this particular website, I refer of course to the locals (inverted commas or not) that have an issue with this subject in every real situation, not just here onscreen..

You took this beyond a single issue (the use of the word America) when you wrote:

And about complaining in general about everything, the difference is that locals complaining about their own country is standard fare all around the world. A foreigner complaining and moaning rubs the locals the wrong way.

How many expats "complain in general about everything" either here in the forum or in the face of "locals" ("real people in the city and the country")?

This is a great place for expats to vent and share information. I don't want Argentines excluded. Its a great way for the expat wannabes to see what they'll encounter if they ever come here...from corrupt cops and lazy porteros in the city, as well as the pickpockets in the subways and hit and run robbers on motos.

If they dig a little deeper they can also find answers to good questions like Why are Argentines so arrogant??? and perhaps understand Why Argentine Women are so Angry! Don't get me wrong. They'll also find some nice comments about people in the country if they read about Beautiful Bahia Blanca.


As I wrote earlier in this thread. I have lived south of the Rio Grande for 10 years. When asked my nationality I always answer, "Norte Americano." It has never annoyed anyone.

That's because you obviously don't know that, as spoken, the words Norteamericano and Estadounidense are interchangeable terms. You say Norteamericano and you might as well be saying Estadounidense, and sorry for the Canadians and Mexicans but that's the way the language evolved.

Of course I know they're the same, but I always refer to myself as a Norte-Americano. I see the word Estadounidense often enough in the subtitles when watching English language programs in Latin America. The word always appears when someone is saying the word "American." I learned to say "Norte Americano" instead of just "Americano" the first week I was in Mexico in 1986.

You can of course say (as we all know) that you are in the process of getting your Arg passport, and good on you, but -sorry to break this to you- you are an individual, you are not everybody, you can't talk for the rest. And I bet you are with the tiny minority.

Actually, I never said anything whatsoever about getting an Argentine passport and I am not in the process of doing so.

I previously asked, "What are you talking about when you used the expression "dubious right to reside in the country?"

If I understand correctly, a foreigner is only living "illegally" in Argentina after a judges so declares. I don't know of any expats who fit that description."

Oh, yes, I forgot you are the ultimate expert on the subject. You can understand whatever you like, as most people around here already do.

Yet, for the sake of clarity: I am referring to those who are in Argentina in a way that they could never be in a lot of other countries.

People that, were they to try the same border hopping and other tricks in order to reside long term in, say, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or most of Europe, they'd be deported or jailed for doing so, while in Argentina it's all a bit of a joke thanks to the loophole, the lax enforcement or no-enforcement, the lack of strict or clear laws and whatever else that you know better than everybody else.

I never claimed to be an expert on citizenship. That's why I've been asking questions about it recently. I do have extensive experience getting and renewing the visa rentista and permanent residency and gladly share that information with anyone who is interested learning about the process.

I never did "whatever I liked" as you so eloquently put it. I received one 90 day prorrroga de permanancia at migraciones. I never made the trip to Uruguay or any other country to obtain a "new" tourist visa. I applied for and recieved the visa rentista within six months of my arrival in Argentina.

Do locals have an issue with this subject? Do they resent foreigners (especially those who call themselves Americans) living in Argentina without a resident visa. Are they unhappy with the government for allowing this to continue? I never met a single Argentine who was concerned with this issue. When the subject comes up, many of them start talking about how their ancestors came to Argentina.

If you are having a go at myself in particular, the point is… what exactly? That I shouldn't be writing here? That I should refrain to read or take part?

Whatever, in the end it's all about language and you will be using it whichever the way you want, regardless of what others say.

Words obviously do have meaning and sometimes more than one. Nonetheless, I do not use language in any way that I want (as opposed to "whichever the way that I want"). Was I having a go at you in particular? I can only speak for myself. I don't think you should refrain from reading or taking part.

But when you start a post with condescending words like "you people" and you use sarcasm instead of making your point with facts, some might think you're a bit snooty.

 

[NoPat]

All right, I will do my best to keep it tight because now I am truly bored and over with it.

You took this beyond a single issue (the use of the word America)

I did not. It all started going beyond the issue way back, and more specifically with Ghost and his "Everything bothers them, there's an inferiority complex issue."

How many expats "complain in general about everything" either here in the forum or in the face of "locals" ("real people in the city and the country")?

Are you for real? Now I know for sure you're putting me on. You do love winding people up, don't you

I never claimed to be an expert on citizenship.

The most prolific and frequent contributor to these pages is you, on the specific subjects of migration, visas, citizenship etc. Are you denying it? This website is full of your advice on the matter, more than anybody else's on any subject. You practically run the place when it comes to that particular area.

As I wrote earlier in this thread. I have lived south of the Rio Grande for 10 years. When asked my nationality I always answer, "Norte Americano." It has never annoyed anyone. Of course I know they're the same, but I always refer to myself as a Norte-Americano.

So your point is what exactly? You basically are saying that I am right. I said "Norteamericano" equals "Estadounidense" and you stated your choice of calling yourself a "Norteamericano" over "Estadounidense" while avoiding the use of "Americano". So? It adds nothing to the debate and you prove my point in spades.

I learned to say "Norte Americano" instead of just "Americano" the first week I was in Mexico in 1986.

Illuminating. May I ask why and how you learnt to switch from Americano to Norteamericano in Mexico? What did the mexicans do to you, to teach you to switch terms so fast?

Actually, I never said anything whatsoever about getting an Argentine passport and I am not in the process of doing so.

You said you were going to apply to the Argentina citizenship. Perhaps my mistake was to take citizenship as synonymous with getting a passport.

I previously asked, "What are you talking about when you used the expression "dubious right to reside in the country?"

Do I really have to repeat myself?

You can argue all you like on the semantics and the legal limbo and Argentina's inefficiency and loopholes of this, I am referring to the simple fact that many expats, permatourists and the like, could never get away with what they do to reside long term in Argentina, if they tried it elsewhere.

As foreign visitors in 1st world countries (like US, Canada, Australia, NZ or most of Europe, etc.) they'd be deported or jailed if they did what they do in Argentina -while in Arg it's all a big silly pantomime, a hide and seek game of endless border hopping & the rest of it.

I never did "whatever I liked" as you so eloquently put it.

A lot of your fellow expats do, and they said it themselves almost verbatim on past occasions on previous different threads. And since you seem to speak for all of them…

I received one 90 day prorrroga de permanancia at migraciones. I never made the trip to Uruguay or any other country to obtain a "new" tourist visa. I applied for and recieved the visa rentista within six months of my arrival in Argentina.

Since when is this about you? You jumped at the last legs of this thread after I intervened in it and you turned it into something about yourself. I never accused you of anything, and all of a sudden without me ever invoking your name on this matter, you turned it into a thing about you.

But when you start a post with condescending words like "you people" and you use sarcasm instead of making your point with facts,

At Last! All that huff and puff over here and it's all because you are pissed off, because you couldn't manage to have the last word on another thread.

So you were waiting for that chance to get back at me somewhere else because I shut you up on the other discussion.

Let me recap: on that other thread, I was trying to prevent someone getting lost, I gave the right spelling of the two places to avoid confusion and Austin (not you) accused me of being snooty, and when I replied to that, you came in, took matters into your own hands as if it had anything to do with you (it didn't, and Austin was already out of the picture) and while you were still wrong about the Barracas / Barrancas thing, you went on teasing me and trying to wind me up.

some might think you're a bit snooty.

Some might think you are a lot of things and none of them nice, Steve. Face it, and resurrecting the stuff about how bad everything is in Argentina won't score you many points on the Charm front. I'm referring to:

If they dig a little deeper they can also find answers to good questions like Why are Argentines so arrogant??? and perhaps understand Why Argentine Women are so Angry!

The "some" that might think I'm a bit snooty are you, yourself and Austin. Others might take this style of wrting as harmless and amusing. Or humorous, which was as intended. And if it did not come across as humorous and amusing, if more than you and Austin think I'm snooty, I couldn't care less one way or the other.

 

[gsi16386]

wow...you guys are putting a lot of effort into this argument, which goes round and round and round. Can we extend you both an olive branch and call it a tie?

 

[LAtoBA]

All right, I will do my best to keep it tight because now I am truly bored and over with it.

Are you sure this time? Because you said something similar a couple of weeks ago but still managed to bring the same very beaten and dead horse back to life yet again.

 

[NoPat]

Are you sure this time? Because you said something similar a couple of weeks ago but still managed to bring the same very beaten and dead horse back to life yet again.

Are you trying to keep me around for even longer? Don't show me bait like the above and I'll stay away, with any luck this thread will die once and for all and I'll celebrate that along with everyone else. I didn't revive anything, this one has legs of its own, I was brought back when reading Ghost's patronising line while I was being told I am condescending on another place.