Many Dead In Paris Tonight

[Vagrant Violet]

You must be confusing this forum with the Fox News forum, if you think that.

Valid point... Conditioned response, I suppose, being from the Midwest and the people I grew up with.

 

[mikic007]

The problem are not refugees but lack of control on eu borders. Now everyone can enter without any difficulty, even without papers. In less than a month more than 200.000 people entered eu through Slovenia and I remember French journalist making fun out of the country saying, how they can't handle the problem, since never nothing happens there. It's true, but big countries could offer some help handling the situation, which till now was not the case. How Croatia could hold more than 10% of its population without difficulties?? And make everything right?

Hope this sad event will force big powers to give a hand to Greece and other small countries for handling refugees in better and more secure way.

 

[steveinbsas]

CNN has reported that "Someone who was involved in this attack exploited the refugee system to carry it out."

That someone was apparently one of the suicide bombers at the stadium, Ahmed al-Mohammad. He "landed in Greece and was also registered in Serbia. He was issued an emergency Syrian passport," no doubt the one found on or near his body at the stadium.

At least two of the seven perpetrators were born in France. One of them, Ismael Omar Mostefai, was born in the suburbs of Paris and was radicalized in 2010.

The problem is much greater than border controls. The problem is ideological as well as geographical. Many believe that the terrorists strike at countries like the USA because of the destruction they have caused in Muslim nations.

Ironically, France and Russia led the opposition to the invasion of Iraq, but Russia's recent military strikes in Syria (especially those aimed at ISIS) make it a likely terrorist target. ISIS has claimed responsibility for the recent sabotage of the Metrojet as well as the attacks in Paris. The connection to militant Islam is indisputable.

The attacks at the office of Charlie Hebdo in January were motivated by an outrage over the blasphemy of a cartoon. Friday night's attacks in Paris can be called "home grown" as they were apparently "masterminded" by Muslim who was born in Paris and radicalized in the Middle East. Most of those killed in January were considered "guilty" of something by their murders. Except for the terrorists themselves, those who died on Friday night were guilty of nothing more than enjoying life in a free country.

In spite of new US vows to bring those responsible to justice, it's rather difficult to prosecute a successful suicide bomber, and it's almost as difficult to know who will be the next one prior to an attack.

 

[Redbeanz]

You must be confusing this forum with the Fox News forum, if you think that.

At times, this can be a completely understandable confusion.

 

[camberiu]

I remember reading this in the aftermath of 9/11. It was a warning and advice on how the US should respond to the terrorist attack. Sadly it was ignored, and even more sadly, it remains as relevant now as it was 12 years ago.

What Can We Do About Terrorism?
Rule #3: Bombing foreign countries doesn't end terrorism, it provokes it.

 

[steveinbsas]

Bombing foreign countries doesn't end terrorism, it provokes it.

CNN is reporting "Major French airstrikes underway in Syria."

Jean-Charles Brisard (French expert on terrorism): "Yes, this is just the beginning."

 

[ElQueso]

Camberiu! How could you post something from such a den of radicalism and "naivete" such as LewRockwell.com, a staunch supporter of Libertarian ideals! You heathen! ( )

Say what one will about the "naivete" of libertarians thinking that humans in smaller, independent groups could actually be happier and freer than people under the thumb of monolithic governments, but can one really call their foreign policy ideas "so far out there"?

Hmmm. Get out of other countries. Don't make a bad situation worse by killing innocents along with those guilty by association with (or simply living nearby) people who have committed atrocities. Stop trying to bring down other people's governments to make the world over in the US' image. Stop giving money to other countries while trying to bribe them to do what you want (I loved this quote: "As Fred Smith pointed out, foreign aid taxes poor people in rich countries for the benefit of rich people in poor countries."). Stop trying to police the world, because the US is no more pure of intent and will than anyone else in this human world.

Nah, too idealistic. Too unreal. Not enough motive for gain for those who would exercise their own way of doing things over us. Yeah, we need all those foreign military bases around the world so we can be ready at a moment's notice to bring truth and justice to the far and dark corners of the world.

Personally, I'd prefer to work more slowly and chip away at the "old regime" (or way of thinking, of whatever creed or belief system that opposes freedom) by continuing to write in public forums, freely expressing my ideals even while being scorned by "those who know better". I may pound my desk a few times here and there, but I'm not pounding heads.

I started thinking about and exploring libertarian ideals shortly after 9/11 and became firmly ensconced in the idea after Bush invaded Iraq with all the trumped up "intelligence" about weapons of mass destruction.. About the time I realized that the US was out of control and no amount of posturing and propaganda could hold my beliefs any more. Did the US deserve to be attacked like it was? Not only no, but hell no! I'm no apologist for terrorists of any ilk. But neither did tens of thousands of innocent civilians abroad (way more than the innocent civilians killed by the terrorists themselves in the US) deserve their deaths in the name of our vengeance disguised as justice, and all of the disaster caused to no good end.

Admittedly, at times I still have problems separating my feelings from my intellect where such things are considered. The "old" memes still float around in my head - "kill the bastards! They aren't human!" and so on. I try to force myself to think unemotionally about these things when I find myself falling into the old mental habits, sometimes with varying degrees of success. I'm not saying I have "the" answer - those who committed said atrocities deserve to burn in whatever hell their religion may believe in, sent there with ragged bodies torn apart, as far as I'm concerned.

But that kind of thinking mixed with careless killing of innocents (whether "targeted" or not) doesn't get us to any kind of peace.

We should protect ourselves, trade with countries with whom we can get along, and let the rest of the world work out its own crap. We (and our "allies", and so on) are just stirring the hornets' nest and making ourselves targets, to no actual good end. We can't fix everything and the "fixes" are often as bad, if not worse, than the original problems. And more importantly, whether I'm right or wrong about that, the world-wide perception is thus and perception counts for more than facts in this world.

And this whole thing about Islam itself being the problem - someone above mentioned a radical Christian website filled with hate and rightfully pointed out that you can't tag all Christians with the same feelings. Christianity has had quite a bloody history, in tandem with Islam, over the last 1000+ years or so and aside from (in my opinion) the Catholic Church still helping to make poor people happy with their lot in life (and aside from priests buggering little boys and such), the majority of Christians are not bloody-minded haters. I don't think Muslims as a whole (or even majority) are either.

Truly, how can we say that those billions of Muslims are all out to kill us? If they really were - we'd probably be dead already. There are a relatively few (percentage of the whole, though granted quite a few in number) extremist Muslims who want our blood. And their numbers seem to be growing daily. What we're doing isn't working, but making matters worse. While I do believe that Muslims who are not violent have a duty to "out" those who are bloody-minded, I can't find it in my heart to condemn them all, any more than I can find it so to condemn my fellow countrymen for their weakness in letting the politicians (both right and left) go on killing innocents in the name of "justice". But I wish both would wake up and see what's going on so we can stop it all. I may as well wish for a million dollars, though.

We don't have the moral right to force our beliefs on the rest of the world or to act as "enforcers of good" and even if we did, without the rest of the world wanting to change, it wouldn't do a damn bit of good, as is evidenced by what happened in Iraq after we mostly pulled out.

The US and other countries (yes, even France after Friday night) would be doing so much better if they would adopt at least the libertarian foreign policy, if nothing else.

 

[camberiu]

CNN is reporting "Major French airstrikes underway in Syria."

Jean-Charles Brisard (French expert on terrorism): "Yes, this is just the beginning."

Yes, just the beginning. French voters now want blood. Just like American wanted blood after 9/11. Anyone's blood, does not matter. Someone has to pay. So they will hammer Syria and kill scores of poor SOBs that were unable to escape ISIS and were stuck there. And from the rubble, the pain and grief of the survivors, new terrorists will emerge.

 

[wineguy999]

Yes, just the beginning. French voters now want blood. Just like American wanted blood after 9/11. Anyone's blood, does not matter. Someone has to pay. So they will hammer Syria and kill scores of poor SOBs that were unable to escape ISIS and were stuck there. And from the rubble, the pain and grief of the survivors, new terrorists will emerge.

Perhaps the true beginning was when the British began drawing lines in the sand, and declaring kings of these newly created nations. No, probably before that, even.

Meanwhile, all of the Muslims who have, with their silence, tolerated their brethren launching terrorist attacks, are now reaping the rewards of their inaction. Indeed they have been, what with IS killing so many of their own. This will not stop until the Muslims themselves, along with the states of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, et al decide that enough is enough. Yes, I know that sounds simplistic, for such a quagmire, but it's a necessary step.

 

[camberiu]

Yes, I know that sounds simplistic, for such a quagmire, but it's a necessary step.

And the world shall become one big Gaza/West Bank. Welcome to life under perpetual conflict.