Moving A Family To Buenos Aires?

If you pay one year rent upfront, the landlord is probably very happy. I would just bring some money and come over, figure out things later.
There are many people from India who probably can give you a lot of advice, like how to get a long term place, how to start a business. You need to come here first.
In any country, if they are willing to work, take care of business, you will do well. So I would not worry too much.
 
Buenos Aires doesn't really have pollution controls so wile it is definitely better than Calcutta, I would not consider it if you have asthma issues. Countryside yes, would be much better but than you are talking about a very, very different life.

School costs depend on age but for a full day at a good bilingual school, you'll be spending around 6000 and up per month per child. There also are generally enrollment fees and you pay 12 months a year, not just when school is in session. The school year begins in March and inscriptions are pretty much closed for the upcoming year I think for most int'l schools.

Groceries are impossible to estimate not only b/c of continually changing costs but also based on what you eat. Go to the websites for Coto, Carrefour, Disco, etc (local supermarket chains) and look at the prices there.
 
I hate to be the one to say it, but if you need your cost of living to be relatively predictable and stable, BA may not be the place for you. Hopefully things will be better with the new President, but changes won't happen overnight.
 
Besides Cordoba, I would recommend Merlo, in San Luis, Or Neuquen City in Neuquen, excellent climate, looks like Arizona.
 
I'm trying to get my head around the accommodation issue... Do I understand correctly - if we want to get a longer term rental (essential as we have kids of course) we will have to put a lot of money up front? (can you give me an idea of how much? are we talking a one year lease and we have to pay the full rent up front?)

And if we don't pay cash up front we won't get anything longer than 1 month? But how do we do that if it's hard to get money into the country?! Bring it in the suitcase or something?!

The law here allows for two different kinds of contracts between an owner and a renter. The first is short term, which by law is supposed to be no more than 6 months, with a single 6 month extension. The second is long term, which is a two year contract. There were changes in some terms of the contract recently, and I don't remember what all they are, but the standard terms are pretty much the same.

The law here makes it very difficult to get people out of long-term contracts if they are not paying the rent - i.e., simply occupying the property, but having started with a contract (the law is different for dealing with actual squatters and can be even more difficult to get squatters out of a property). Because of this law, most owners here require other means of securing long-term contracts. The most common (by far) is a guaranty of another property that can be attached to a process different than kicking someone out of the apartment if they don't pay - a civil suit related to non-fulfillment of a contract outside of rental agreements. You can find some owners who will accept 6 or 12 months of rent as a deposit or as paying ahead - but the problem with this, which most owners understand, is that once they have the money for a year, for example, you could stay there the following year, plus, without paying rent and they have no recourse because the legal system here will always side with the renter (with children particularly) before the renter (because they are evil rich people who always take advantage of poor people - and unfortunately in some cases it's even true).

There are some people who will accept no guarantee and a varying amount of deposit (up to and including the entire 24 months in advance) but they are few and far between when talking about better properties because money in hand, here, doesn't always mean problem solved in the future.

The issue with temporary apartments isn't so dire - it's easier to get people out of the temporary apartment, although with children it becomes an issue again and people may be unwilling to rent for longer term in a short-term contract because they may fear you are planning on staying there free. Also, it may simply be that many temporary apartments are simply booked out, except for a month here, a few weeks here, etc.

Outside the city and in other provinces, things can be different. I know of people who rent places with nothing but a month's deposit and no guarantee, but many I personally wouldn't want to live in. In Cordoba, I almost moved there once about 7 years ago and found things to be easier - I didn't need a guarantee, but I don't know how things are these days in Cordoba.

This, aside from the currency controls and getting money into the country, is one of the biggest things I've had to deal with since moving here 9 years ago.

Can anyone offer anymore help on the cost of groceries please? At this stage it's really a case of trying to tie down the costs so that we can see if it's possible for us to live comfortably there, but apart from numbeo I'm finding it hard to get up to date info (and that seems to be so important due to the inflation). Numbeo only gives costs per grocery item but really i need a rough idea of the total monthly cost...

This will vary wildly as to what you buy and how you do it. We live well, there are 5 of us, and I currently spend about 10,000 pesos a month for food and household supplies, or about 2000 pesos a person per month. I buy meat from a place that delivers and costs about half what it does from the supermarket, I also have a brother-in-law who works for Terrabusi and gets us things like toilet paper, paper towels, laundry detergent and other household items for a significant discount over retail prices.

Your mileage will vary. You all may eat much cheaper than we do, I have no way of knowing. Some others would have to cough up how much they are spending per person for you to get a good idea.
 
Thank you all, very useful stuff.

citygirl - re school fees, do you mean 6000pesos per month per child? or dollars? (this may seem like a silly question, but I'm discovering that the cost of international schools varies greatly from country to country and bears very little relation to salary rates, cost of living etc)

mmoon- it's not that we need our expenditure to be predictable, it's just that when my husband starts looking at jobs in BA we need to have an idea of whether the salary will support the kind of lifestyle we want to live. Really all we need is a snapshot of what it's like right now and I think ElQueso's comments will help in this regard.

Regarding locations, we're really dependent upon where (and whether) my husband can find a job. I don't consider myself to have 'asthma issues', it's just that the air in India is the worst in the world. I've consulted the UN figures on this and the annual mean pm2.5 for Kolkata is 50, where BA is only 16, so significantly better. I appreciate that BA is a rapidly changing place and that there are no pollution controls, but for the moment it is a huge improvement. And seeing as I've never had 'asthma issues' before, despite having lived in Bristol England for many years which factors in at 15, I think I should be able to manage in BA! Let's hope so because if the whole expat thing doesn't work out then I have to go back home to Bristol! Thanks for the suggestions anyway, if I do continue to have problems in cities then obviously I'll have to move to the countryside and will happily do so but in the meantime I'd like to try some 'cleaner' cities like BA to see if we can find one that works out.

So, ElQueso, if I understand correctly...we would need to arrive with a stack of cash, then as we have no contacts in BA we would more than likely have to take a 6 month contract, which we may be able to get extended by 6 months. At that stage we would have to find somewhere new to live (on another 6 month contract) unless we had befriended a local who trusted us enough to put up their property as a guarantee. Sounds unlikely, so most likely we would have to move every year then? If this is the case it's seriously putting me off BA. Before having kids I moved around a lot, often every year, it's easy as a single person, but with a family it's a pain in the neck and I'm really looking for somewhere we can just settle in for a few years.
 
Thank you all, very useful stuff.

citygirl - re school fees, do you mean 6000pesos per month per child? or dollars? (this may seem like a silly question, but I'm discovering that the cost of international schools varies greatly from country to country and bears very little relation to salary rates, cost of living etc)

mmoon- it's not that we need our expenditure to be predictable, it's just that when my husband starts looking at jobs in BA we need to have an idea of whether the salary will support the kind of lifestyle we want to live. Really all we need is a snapshot of what it's like right now and I think ElQueso's comments will help in this regard.

Regarding locations, we're really dependent upon where (and whether) my husband can find a job. I don't consider myself to have 'asthma issues', it's just that the air in India is the worst in the world. I've consulted the UN figures on this and the annual mean pm2.5 for Kolkata is 50, where BA is only 16, so significantly better. I appreciate that BA is a rapidly changing place and that there are no pollution controls, but for the moment it is a huge improvement. And seeing as I've never had 'asthma issues' before, despite having lived in Bristol England for many years which factors in at 15, I think I should be able to manage in BA! Let's hope so because if the whole expat thing doesn't work out then I have to go back home to Bristol! Thanks for the suggestions anyway, if I do continue to have problems in cities then obviously I'll have to move to the countryside and will happily do so but in the meantime I'd like to try some 'cleaner' cities like BA to see if we can find one that works out.

So, ElQueso, if I understand correctly...we would need to arrive with a stack of cash, then as we have no contacts in BA we would more than likely have to take a 6 month contract, which we may be able to get extended by 6 months. At that stage we would have to find somewhere new to live (on another 6 month contract) unless we had befriended a local who trusted us enough to put up their property as a guarantee. Sounds unlikely, so most likely we would have to move every year then? If this is the case it's seriously putting me off BA. Before having kids I moved around a lot, often every year, it's easy as a single person, but with a family it's a pain in the neck and I'm really looking for somewhere we can just settle in for a few years.
The rental situation can be very complex, or very simple. The thing with the 6 months first contract and the second being the limit by law doesn't mean that you can't find someone who will even rent to you without a guarantee, for as long as you want to live there, under consecutive 6 month contracts, for years. i was giving you the sort of legal end of things, but there are owners who are either unaware that a 6 month temporary contract, extended for a third time, actually gives the renter a default contractual situation of a two year long term lease. There are others who know and don't care, who rent anyway on extended temporary contracts.

Personally, I too despise moving. I'd stay in a bad situation, if I could find one that was survivable, just to keep from moving!

To use me as an example of how things may play out: for my first year, year and a half, here I lived in temporary apartments. The longest time I was in one was 2 months, but in 2006-2007, the tourist market was going full guns and it was simply hard to find any apartment that was not booked, at least for a few weeks here and there, which would break up any kind of continuous short-term lease. Now, the tourist situation isn't as good as it was, but it seems to be improving - my wife helps manage temporary rentals for a guy we know and for the last two years it hasn't been all that busy, but in the last few months things have picked up significantly. That may mean a return to difficult times finding a temporary lease for longer than a month or two, or maybe not - just don't know yet.

After that first year, year and a half, I got lucky. I had a friend who I'd met here, an accountant from the States, who had paid all of his two year lease in advance in lieu of having a property guarantee. About 10 months into his lease, he was recalled back to the States (he was telecommuting for a company, but got promoted and the new position required him to be present in the office) and he had already sunk a lot of money into his future here. I was newly married and he knew I was looking for an apartment, so I moved into his apartment (actually bought all of his furnishings - and that's something to think about: rarely do long-term leases include furniture. Temporaries almost always do include furnishings) and I got a little over a year in his place. That was the first time I'd been able to stay for more than a couple of months! I actually bought a desk to work at instead of the kitchen table!

In the meantime, I was employing people here and one of my programmers and I had developed a pretty good friendship. He had an apartment in Cordoba and he offered it to me as a guarantee for us to rent a house in the far suburbs (about 40 kilometers outside the city), in a closed neighborhood (good, clean air there, I must say). We stayed there for two years, but I had job problems and things got too expensive out there so we moved into the city. Know that most owners want a guarantee on property that is in the city, but you can find people who will accept something even as far as Cordoba, as I found out.

My second long term rental - I had also made friends with another expat who owned an apartment in town. He offered me a guarantee, but I had to give him a deposit to ensure that I wouldn't screw him over by screwing the owners over (because he, as guarantor, would be responsible directly). I lived in that apartment for 4 years (nearly heaven!) and ended up having to leave because the owner got greedy and decided he could rent his apartment out for nearly double what I was paying. As far as I can tell, he still has not rented that apartment out, after about 18 months.

So the apartment I'm in now, I got the guarantee from the father of a friend of my wife's. His apartment for the guarantee is in Mar del Plata, another non-CABA (Ciudad Autonoma de Buenos Aires) apartment. I paid him straight up the value one month's rent for the guarantee (and rented through Remax, which cost me a month and a half rent for their commission! They let me pay it over two months...). That was about 18 months ago. Moving here can be expensive when you talk about long term leases, paying the movers (though certainly a much better value than moving in the States, by far), the deposit on the new apartment (I and almost everyone I know have had bad luck getting the deposit back from owners after having ended a lease) and often paying someone for their guarantee. We told the owners that we wanted to live here for a long time because we were sick of moving and they were delighted to hear that. And then about 6 months ago, we got news that their ownership of the apartment was contested by their father and they are forced by the court to sell their apartment (long story) They can't kick us out until our lease is up in the middle of March (and really, it would take at least a couple of years to kick us out if we refused to leave, but it would affect the people we got the guarantee from and there is no way I'd do that, contrary to any advice our forum-resident Argentine lawyer gave me to do just that!).

I've had terrible luck with landlords renting here. I mean, really terrible. I have occupied somewhere around 13 different apartments (most in the first year and a half) and one house in the 9 years I've lived here. I've yet to get my deposit back on a long term rental and we take care fo the places we live in.

However, I have a friend who has spectacular luck, at least at finding places without a guarantee (although he just got screwed on getting his deposit back). He's never needed a guarantee. He just left a small apartment right across from Recoleta Shopping that he occupied for 9 years. He had previously made a contact with the owner of an apartment that is incredible (about two blocks away from the congress building on Av. de Mayo, a tower with a dome and three floors, on the roof of a big apartment building) - the owner is American and is happy to lease to my friend for the foreseeable future without a guarantee.

My biggest problem may be similar to yours, depending on how big a space you need for the kids. My wife and I have three teenage girls (well, one is almost 20) who are her sisters and came to live with us, from Paraguay, to get a better education than what they got back in the poor part of Paraguay where they're from. I work at home, so I need an office. Big apartments at a good value in a nice neighborhood are hard to find in the city. You may have much more luck outside the city (some bad places, some good places) or in another town or province (like Cordoba city in Cordoba province, or Mendoza in the north, etc).

It also depends on how much money you have to spend, how small a space you are willing to rent, how far to travel for work, what kind of work you can get, etc, as to where and how you can live, and often the contacts you can make. You may not have any choice, should you all decide to come, but to live in temporary apartments for the first year or so until you make enough contacts to start finding ways to get longer term rentals. But that also gives you all time to figure out what to do with the kids (schools, good place to raise them, etc) and find work, and so on.

I don't want to put you off, but you need to know about these things to make a good decision and at least make the choice to come with your eyes wide open. I've told my wife many times that I would prefer to live in Paraguay, in Asuncion or Encarnacion, but she lived most of her life very poor in Paraguay and has a lot of bad memories and can't be convinced - yet. But we could live there for about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of living here (including decent schools in Asuncion at least, probably in Encarnacion as well, though I haven't visited there yet, just heard good things about it), at the same level of lifestyle (at this point in time, better access to electronics, furniture and other items) - but I'm also not a partier, which many people who are here see as a good thing about Buenos Aires, at least).
 
To Rent Long term without a Garantia

1. One way to rent a long term lease is to start with a short term lease in any building you fancy. Maybe for 6 months. And in those 6 months, make friends with guards/neighbors etc and look for other owners in the same building who may be ready to lease you a apartment without a garantia for long term - having seen you for sometime in the same building. After some time, when everyone knows you and know you are capable of paying - trust develops - and you may get lucky in the same building where you are a short term renter.

2. 2nd way for long term lease is to look for expat owners who are settled abroad and will be happy to receive USD rent abroad in a bank account abroad. Its a win win for both. You get a long term without a garantia. He gets USD without having to receive in pesos in BA and having to have someone convert in USD and remit it abroad! usually in this case, there is no escalation of rent every 6 months and you dont have to watch the usd/peso conversion on a dailyyy.

3. 3rd way to get long term lease is pay 12 months rent upfront. This will cool the landlord and his worries if you will pay the rent or not. Thereafter agree to pay in blocks of 3 months and the landlord will be happy to accept.

4. The 4th way is that if you have a legal job and legal earnings or registered with AFIP ( argentine tax authority) as a tax payer for over a year. You can actually buy a bank guarantee from a bank to help you rent without a garantia. The bank guarantees to the landlord to pay the rent in case you can not.


Recovering deposit on long term lease

1.Do not pay the rent for last month.

2. Invite the landlord to have a look at the apartment 1 month before the rent is due for last month and ask him for feedback on any damages you may have done. Have your integrity intact and repair what you broke in last 2 years

3.Have a quality management system style of all bills neatly filed, with separators, in sequential order, for the landlord to sight that nothing major is due

4. You could usually pay electricity, gas, building expenses, cable, ABL ( street taxes) bills all in advance and have them ready for the landlord to sight. That you have paid up all till the departure date.

5. If you have hung paintings etc - get the wall repaired.
 
Thanks ElQueso, I understand now. I know you're not trying to put me off, it's invaluable to have some honest advice. It's really important to me personally because we kind of messed up moving here to Kolkata and we've suffered as a result. It does take time to figure out all this stuff so this time I'm determined to have as much info as possible before I arrive! My husband and I are both drawn to Argentina so we just need to figure out if we are willing to take a chance on it. Without kids I'd say definitely but with kids, I'm just not sure. I'm drained from our Kolkata experience and some time to relax and stop worrying would be nice. I guess we'll see what kind of job opportunities there are for my husband and then take it from there. We have 3 other possible locations on the list to compare with so we still have a bit of investigation to do!

I'm surprised to hear you say that you would live in Paraguay...Asuncion was one place on our list of potential places to go (due to 'cleaner' air), but I've read that it's dirty and broken down and suffers from some of the same problems as India like shops with unstocked shelves and very limited range of products. I took it off our list as a result as I couldn't bear another place like this.

Thanks ceviche, some great ideas there, I will definitely bear all this in mind.
 
Thanks ElQueso, I understand now. I know you're not trying to put me off, it's invaluable to have some honest advice. It's really important to me personally because we kind of messed up moving here to Kolkata and we've suffered as a result. It does take time to figure out all this stuff so this time I'm determined to have as much info as possible before I arrive! My husband and I are both drawn to Argentina so we just need to figure out if we are willing to take a chance on it. Without kids I'd say definitely but with kids, I'm just not sure. I'm drained from our Kolkata experience and some time to relax and stop worrying would be nice. I guess we'll see what kind of job opportunities there are for my husband and then take it from there. We have 3 other possible locations on the list to compare with so we still have a bit of investigation to do!

I'm surprised to hear you say that you would live in Paraguay...Asuncion was one place on our list of potential places to go (due to 'cleaner' air), but I've read that it's dirty and broken down and suffers from some of the same problems as India like shops with unstocked shelves and very limited range of products. I took it off our list as a result as I couldn't bear another place like this.

Thanks ceviche, some great ideas there, I will definitely bear all this in mind.
So, you are not from India, originally ?
 
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