Multi-year Spanish School; Citizenship

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

On August 13, 2020 (in the "Citizenship timeline" thread), Bajo_cero2 posted:

"An internation passport is granted only with full citizenship."

You can read the full thread here:

Citizenship timeline

Hello, What is the expected time needed to get the citizenship from the moment you arrive to the time you get naturalized? and what is the best visa for a day trader to enter the country on for this case? how to reach out to lawyers and how much can the one expect to pay in lawyer fees?

baexpats.org

PS: I'm not certain if "second class citizinship" is granted by the courts or it's acutally permanent residency which is granted by migraciones.

Here is a cut and paste from that thread:

Jacob93 said:
Thanks for the reply!
You said its like a “second class“ citizenship with no political rights! Does it mean we don't have the right to vote? What did you mean by second class?
Is there another route to get the “first class” version?

Second Class citizenship is an euphemism used in the US to describe the status of former slave after emancipation before full enfranchisement. They were Americans but the couldn't vote plus they suffer oppression.
Here you have full civil rights and those who are not recognized can be enforced at Court like the right to re enter the country.
You can go for full citizenship as an inhabitant (expat) or as a legal resident.

*****
I am confused after having read the whole thread, post by post. This "Second Class Citizenship" thing doesn't seem to exist in Argentina. I think the reference is to a permanent resident status being similar in nature to what American slaves went through after emancipation. As in they had no right to vote! Am I right or am I wrong about this???

 

[dsp27]

Most if not all judges in CABA - aka city of Buenos Aires, will require some sort of an established residency in order to start the procedure for the carta de ciudadania. Being a tourist won't cut it. At least a precaria is necessary these days. You can certainly try your luck and it MIGHT work but it will take many years and probably go to an appeal etc etc. my guess is 3-5 years. On the other hand, the process for vanilla cases (those with 2 years of temp.//perm. residency is going fast these days, I am 4 months into my application and I have all the oficios already responded except for renaper and convenio. It does take a lot of pressing and calling and nudging but things move faster now. With a bit of luck might be able to finish the whole thing in under 12 months. But who knows.

 

[BAHibs]

*****
I am confused after having read the whole thread, post by post. This "Second Class Citizenship" thing doesn't seem to exist in Argentina. I think the reference is to a permanent resident status being similar in nature to what American slaves went through after emancipation. As in they had no right to vote! Am I right or am I wrong about this???

That's what I took away from the thread, I thought it was the difference between permanent residency and full citizenship, but I could be wrong..

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Yes, The ability to obtain a passport would go hand in hand with citizenship.

To tell you the truth, I had absolutely no idea that permanent residents were able (OBLIGATED) to vote in all elections except for presidential elections. That is amazing to me. To your knowledge, is this the only country that allows a non citizen to vote in "lower" elections?

PR is a second class citizenship.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Well, I don't disagree with you. In fact I do agree.

But I figured I would point this out to the poster, because in a rare situation such as having committed a crime or being accused of doing so, there is no avoiding the local justice system via your country diplomat trying to do something for you. (If that were even possible.) Put another way, you are viewed and treated as a local, because you are. You native country citizenship is ignored and your diplomats are powerless to help you like they could if you did not have ARG. citizenship status.

Before 1860, there were mixed international courts for foreigners when expats were real expats under diplomat jurisdiction. The NC maintained that system that we call Federal Courts where International Law is applied to foreigners but suppressed the diplomatic foreign judges.
This is why foreigners are entitled to Federal Court´s jurisdiction.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Here is a cut and paste from that thread:
Second Class citizenship is an euphemism used in the US to describe the status of former slave after emancipation before full enfranchisement. They were Americans but the couldn't vote plus they suffer oppression.
Here you have full civil rights and those who are not recognized can be enforced at Court like the right to re enter the country.
You can go for full citizenship as an inhabitant (expat) or as a legal resident.
*****
I am confused after having read the whole thread, post by post. This "Second Class Citizenship" thing doesn't seem to exist in Argentina. I think the reference is to a permanent resident status being similar in nature to what American slaves went through after emancipation. As in they had no right to vote! Am I right or am I wrong about this???

The legislation is Argentina is recognizing more rights (political) to PR because only full citizenship is recognized in the AR Constitution and, even politicians do not understand this clearly, they smell discrimination in the Immigration law and they try to fix it the best they can because every province has its own voting law.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Most if not all judges in CABA - aka city of Buenos Aires, will require some sort of an established residency in order to start the procedure for the carta de ciudadania. Being a tourist won't cut it. At least a precaria is necessary these days. You can certainly try your luck and it MIGHT work but it will take many years and probably go to an appeal etc etc. my guess is 3-5 years. On the other hand, the process for vanilla cases (those with 2 years of temp.//perm. residency is going fast these days, I am 4 months into my application and I have all the oficios already responded except for renaper and convenio. It does take a lot of pressing and calling and nudging but things move faster now. With a bit of luck might be able to finish the whole thing in under 12 months. But who knows.

RENAPER and Convenio Policial nowadays are replied in 2 weeks with the DEOX system, but you need password and a bar ID.

The DNU 70/2017 that requested for legal residency was abolished in March 2021. I'm do not need to appeal anymore because they do not ask for legal residency of any kind.

 

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

PR is a second class citizenship.

Thanks for that clarification. And it makes sense, because PR is just that, PR without all the extra rights and privileges citizens enjoy. (Sometimes responsibilities as well, such as voting.)

 

[SecretShopper]

RENAPER and Convenio Policial nowadays are replied in 2 weeks with the DEOX system, but you need password and a bar ID.

The DNU 70/2017 that requested for legal residency was abolished in March 2021. I'm do not need to appeal anymore because they do not ask for legal residency of any kind.

Hmmm.... well that now puts a wrinkle in this whole citizenship plan. If you no longer need to be a legal resident then is it really best to just show up as a tourist and apply right away?

 

[steveinbsas]

Hmmm.... well that now puts a wrinkle in this whole citizenship plan. If you no longer need to be a legal resident then is it really best to just show up as a tourist and apply right away?

Based on what Bajo-cero2 has perviously posted, applying for citizenship "right away"as a tourist doesn't appear to be an option. You may be able to start the process without "legal residency" (and with a lawyer) after one year, but it's apparently up to each judge whether or not to proceed with the case or make you wait until you have been in Argentina for two full years. Just come as a tourist, overstay that visa, and start the process after a year.