Nestor Kirchner has just passed

sergio said:
As I pointed out in another post, the state is subsidizing private railways. When is the last time you rode a long distance passenger train in Argentina? NEVER? Go over to Retiro and take a train to Cordoba, Tucuman, Rosario, Junin etc or take a train from Constitucion to Mar del Plata, Pinamar, Tandil or Bahia Blanca. Go south and ride the Bahia Blanca to Bariloche train. The railways are not dead. Even in the days of Ferrocarriles Argentinos there were plenty of intercity buses.

Apologies, I meant to change how I worded that, could we say he wreaked havoc on the railways then? I think its something like 20 odd thousand km less lines in use, 40 odd thousand fewer workers. When he devolved responsiblities for the railways to the provinces many simply ceased operating the next day. This resulted in hundreds of ghost towns and forced thousands to relocate. I think you could call that havoc. As for other public works, how many schools, hospitals and houses did Menem build during his tenure?
 
fifs2 said:
Some of the petty bickering on this thread is beneath us as supposedly civilized human beings. A man, a husband, father, brother has died today, suddenly and at a young age, perhaps without the chance to make his peace with God. I have barely had a good word to say about him whilst alive but to speak so ill of the dead, without any sense of human sentiment is pretty disgusting. RIP Nestor, you were as flawed as all of us mere human beings. may you find peace and enlightenment whereever your soul finds rest.

As a civilized human being I do feel some sympathy for the Kirchner family just as I will feel some sympathy for the family of Bernie Madoff when he dies or as I felt for the family of Sadam Hussien when he was executed. However, as in those cases, I feel more sympathy for those these leaders oppressed and defrauded through the abuse of power than for the individuals themselves.
 
SaraSara said:
Those "supporters" are paid and brought to BA by the busload when needed. My housekeeper's sister works as a supporter/piquetera: the section boss hands out slips of paper with a place and time, they show up as instructed, and after the "spontaneous" demonstration is over they receive seventy-five pesos apiece. It used to be fifty, but the pay went up with inflation.

All polls show the K's support at around 30%. Anyway, we shall see what happens at election time. The next year is bound to be an "interesting" one in Argentina.

Wrong again, recent polls of the last few months show Nestor and Cristina with approval ratings of over 40% and as the top two favourites out of the potential presidential candidates for the next election.

Chau Sara, la censista is here...
 
sergio said:
Ferrocarriles Argentinos was a complete disaster. The company was probably the largest public employer, if not THE largest then one of the largest in the nation, and it worked horribly. There were thousands upon thousands of gnochis, people on the payroll who only showed up to get their pay. The trains were dirty, completely unreliable and inefficient. I prefer trains to buses but I have NEVER experienced anything as bad as Ferrocarriles Argentinos. I remember a trip to Cordoba in a sleeper that had one working light, about 20 watts. The window was shattered, the bed had dirty, used sheets. The foam pillow crumbled in my hand. It was a rolling slum. This is how Ferrocarriles ended. I agree that the state should have subsidized the private railways for passenger service while monitoring that service but the fact is that what Ferrocarriles Argentinos offered at the end of its life was useless. Nowadays the state subsidizes the railways (there is still a LOT of corruption). At least the trains run by the private company Ferrocentral (they go to Cordoba and Tucuman) are a lot better than what Ferrocarriles offered in its last years.

Some years ago we rode to Tucuman on a Ferrocarriles Argentinos' sleeper train which also carried cars, like Florida's Autotrain. Our compartment was old and worn but very clean, and so were the sheets. The dining room car windows were cracked, small wonder as the train passed through the worst Rosario slums at dinnertime, the dining room brightly lit and showing the passengers having dinner at tables set with white linen. An insult to slum dwellers, and an open invitation to rock-trowers. The car carriers were fully enclosed in steel mesh, so automobiles were not harmed.

The porter who checked our tickets congratulated us for being the only passengers in his car who had paid the fare...! The other seventeen compartments were occupied by people riding for free on government passes, railroad passes, or union passes.

So, Ferrocarriles' failure wasn't as much the fault of the railroad workers, as it was the fault of the politicians in charge of them.

Hope to ride Ferrocentral to Tucuman next winter - as far as I know they don't carry cars now, but maybe later by next year they will. It was a great arrangement.
 
dr__dawggy said:
As a civilized human being I do feel some sympathy for the Kirchner family just as I will feel some sympathy for the family of Bernie Madoff when he dies or as I felt for the family of Sadam Hussien when he was executed. However, as in those cases, I feel more sympathy for those these leaders oppressed and defrauded through the abuse of power than for the individuals themselves.


Point well taken. I don´t want to appear holier than thou, as with each new victim of senseless crime I had been feeling more and more indignant at the K regime but with today´s shocking news I felt enormous sadness for him and his family...he thought it was all a game and he had all the time in the world to play it...typical human arrogance. As my mother always says "Ït´s all fun and games till someone gets hurt..."....would that all Argentine politicians developed a little more humanity afte rtoday but give it a week and the jostling for power will be trly shameful.
 
In case I look too pure and caring:

http://www.facebook.com/# http://www.fumarpaco.com.ar/kirchner/
Video: Kirchner Robando
Documental con todos los Robos de los Kirchner. Como llegaron, ferrocarriles, Indec, pobreza, retenciones, los amigos, los negocios, petróleo y minería, pesca, corrupción, aviones, patotas, clientelismo, los medios, cultura k, provincias dependientes, congreso, ecología, casinos, mitos, promesas



 
fifs2 said:
Point well taken. I don´t want to appear holier than thou, as with each new victim of senseless crime I had been feeling more and more indignant at the K regime but with today´s shocking news I felt enormous sadness for him and his family...he thought it was all a game and he had all the time in the world to play it...typical human arrogance. As my mother always says "Ït´s all fun and games till someone gets hurt..."....would that all Argentine politicians developed a little more humanity afte rtoday but give it a week and the jostling for power will be trly shameful.

Isn't that it though?
The jostling for power has probably already started, yet NK has yet to arrive at government house.
The nature of the beast, as they say.
 
I know many here will not agree with this article but the Kirchner Legacy needs to be commended .

The sudden death of Néstor Kirchner today is a great loss not only to Argentina but to the region and the world. Kirchner took office as president in May 2003, when Argentina was in the initial stages of its recovery from a terrible recession. His role in rescuing Argentina's economy is comparable to that of Franklin D. Roosevelt in the Great Depression of the United States. Like Roosevelt, Kirchner had to stand up not only to powerful moneyed interests but also to most of the economics profession, which was insisting that his policies would lead to disaster. They proved wrong, and Kirchner was right.
Argentina's recession from 1998-2002 was indeed comparable to the U.S. Great Depression in terms of unemployment, which peaked at more than 21 percent, and lost output (about 20 percent of GDP). The majority of Argentines, who had until then enjoyed living standards among the highest in Latin America, were pushed below the poverty line. In December of 2002 and January 2003, the country underwent a massive devaluation, a world-historical record sovereign default on $95 billion of debt, and a collapse of the financial system.
Although some of the heterodox policies that ultimately ensured Argentina's rapid recovery were begun in the year before Kirchner took office, he had to follow them through some tough challenges to make Argentina the fastest growing economy in the region.
One big challenge came from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The Fund had been instrumental in bringing about the collapse - by supporting, among other bad policies, an overvalued exchange rate with ever increasing indebtedness at rising interest rates. But when Argentina's economy inevitably collapsed the Fund offered no help, just a series of conditions that would impede the economy's recovery. The IMF was trying to get a better deal for the foreign creditor. Kirchner rightly refused the Fund's conditions, and the IMF refused to roll over Argentina's debt.
In September of 2003 the battle came to a head when Kirchner temporarily defaulted to the Fund rather than accept its conditions. It was an extraordinarily gutsy move - no middle income country had ever defaulted to the Fund, only a handful of failed or pariah states like Iraq or Congo. That's because the IMF was seen as having the power to cut off even trade credits to a country that defaulted to them. No one knew for sure what would happen. But the Fund backed down and rolled over the loans.
Argentina went on to grow at an average of more than 8 percent annually through 2008, pulling more than 11 million people in a country of 40 million out of poverty. The policies of the Kirchner government, including the Central Bank targeting of a stable and competitive real exchange rate, and taking a hard line against the defaulted creditors - were not popular in Washington or among the business press. But they worked.
Kirchner's successful face-off with the IMF came at a time when the Fund was rapidly losing influence in the world, after its failures in the Asian economic crisis that preceded Argentina's collapse. It showed the world that a country could defy the IMF and live to tell about it, and contributed to the ensuing loss of IMF influence in Latin America and middle-income countries generally. Since the IMF was at the time the most important avenue of Washington's influence in low-and-middle-income countries, this also contributed to the demise of United States influence, and especially in the recently-won independence of South America.
And Kirchner played a major role in consolidating this independence, working with the other left governments including Brazil, Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia. Through institutions such as UNASUR (the Union of South American Nations), MERCOSUR (the South American trading bloc), and numerous commercial agreements, South America was able to dramatically alter its trajectory. They successfully backed Bolivia's government against an extra-parliamentary challenge from the right in 2008, and most recently stood behind Ecuador in that attempted coup there a few weeks ago. Unfortunately they did not succeed in overturning last year's military coup in Honduras, where U.S. backing of the coup government proved decisive. But Argentina, together with UNASUR, still refuses to allow Honduras back into the OAS, despite heavy lobbying from Washington.
Kirchner also earned respect from human rights organizations for his willingness to prosecute and extradite some of the military officers accused of crimes against humanity during the 1976-1983 dictatorship - reversing the policies of previous governments. Together with his wife, current president Cristina Fernández, Néstor Kirchner has made an enormous contribution in helping to move Argentina and the region in a progressive direction. Although these efforts have not generally won him much favor in Washington and in international business circles, history will record him not only as a great president but an independence hero of Latin America.
This column was published by The Guardian Unlimited (UK) on October 27, 2010.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-w..._b_774966.html
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perry said:
I know many here will not agree with this article but the Kirchner Legacy needs to be commended .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-w..._b_774966.html
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Thank you Pericles. Thanks to the Guardian (one of the last bastions of real journalism).
I have read all the posts here and thought hard about what to say.
There is no 'perfect' politician. It's a shame that this imperfect politician had to die to be recognised for his stance against the IMF and what it did for Argentina. Honduras, Bolivia, Ecuador? No words needed.
But the truth is, i don't want to say any more. I'm disappointed and disillusioned with most of what has been said on this forum and the general political stance has been made clear. Una lastima
 
It's a shame to see this thread deteriorate into a pro-Kirchner/anti-Kirchner debate. NK is dead. Whether or not he was corrupt is pretty irrelevant at this point. A pity "both sides" can't seem to come together and look towards the future, rather than the past in order to make Argentina a better place for Argentines and expats alike. Because I can assure you, Argentina is far from perfect.
 
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