New Immigration Decree, Long Life To King Macri!

[Bajo_cero2]

Two things I've seen about you, bajo, is that 1) you tend not to let the real world interfere with your worldview, and that 2) you enjoy brandishing 'jail!' as an argument.

Thank you for an intelligent and respectful criticism. It is always welcome (and rare).

You are right, that's why I am a lawyer.

In real life you can kill several people without going to jail, however, as a lawyer i find it too risky. This is the difference.

I prefer to do things in a risk free way. I advice in that way because I m a pro.

Jail is the consequence for too many actions (that are legal in other countries) because this is a country where many fascist law from the times of Peron survives.

To identify your self improperly (with a foreign passport being local) is a crime. Read the RENAPER law.

I have a client of mine with a criminal case for that. He had DNI for foreigners and he used passport. Wrong.

There is a leading precedent that establishes that being local, you need local passport because even the company can refuse to check in you because they might be heavily fined.

 

[ben]

Thank you for an intelligent and respectful criticism. It is always welcome (and rare).

You are right, that's why I am a lawyer.

In real life you can kill several people without going to jail, however, as a lawyer i find it too risky. This is the difference.

I prefer to do things in a risk free way. I advice in that way because I m a pro.

Jail is the consequence for too many actions (that are legal in other countries) because this is a country where many fascist law from the times of Peron survives.

To identify your self improperly (with a foreign passport being local) is a crime. Read the RENAPER law.

I have a client of mine with a criminal case for that. He had DNI for foreigners and he used passport. Wrong.

There is a leading precedent that establishes that being local, you need local passport because even the company can refuse to check in you because they might be heavily fined.

Well well, methinks equating murder with a practice that DNM explicitly condones, in writing, is a bit out of left field.

Speaking of which, you simply ignored that point - that DNM explicitly provides for Argentines entering the country on a foreign passport.

As I wrote before, maybe you're right and it is DNM which is misinformed. But to disregard the government's stated position on this - proof of which exists in writing at least ever since the reciprocity fee was introduced - is to be, if not misleading, at least not providing the full picture.

To show your foreign passport without the DNI extranjero is to misrepresent your residency, rather than your nationality/citizenship. And, crucially, you do not indicate the context in which your client used a passport instead of without a DNI extranjero, and was prosecuted for the same.

• It almost certainly wasn't at DNM - over there your DNI pops up on the screen as soon as your passport is swiped, you basically can't lie about it even if you want to.
• Perhaps it was at customs? Over there, misrepresenting your residency (totally unrelated to nationality) is actually a big deal, for obvious reasons.
• That he would be prosecuted for misrepresenting his residency (not nationality) at aduana would make much more sense, both in motive and in the criminality thereof - and but would completely undercut your argument that that case has any bearing on the passport used to enter the country.

You could, as a lawyer, state: "I am aware that DNM allows Argentines to enter the country on a foreign passport, however my understanding is that this is not according to the law, and as such this policy could change tomorrow". That would be difficult to argue with. But you do not say that. You say that it is, in fact, disallowed - which is a factual assertion, which one need not be a lawyer to disprove. A pair of eyes and common sense is enough.

 

[Ceviche]

Bajo,

I follow your advise - someone who is a certified lawyer and has evidence of doing immigration cases for several years.

I have no intention of following the wrong advise on this thread.

If a student can be deported for not updating her address on her DNI, god knows what all these guys can do for not showing yr Argentine documents at immigration!

Let the wise ones take their chances basis the bad advise being propogated here!

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Ben, you do not understand at all how the legal system works.

They do have records at the computer but they use them to check if you lie of hide something ot not, always against you.

As I explained before, the issue is to leave the country, not to entry. Read art. 14 of the CN.

 

[ben]

Bajo, you are either really not getting what I say, or just being disingenuous. I try to be respectful - but you make it so hard.

You ignored - again - that the DNM says that you can do precisely that which you say you can't.

Whether or not something shows up on the computer or not, has nothing to do with the legal system[sup]1[/sup]. And the info does show up - I can attest to that. Is that difficult to understand?

And you also ignored the rather pertinent question of where your clients had used their passport and gotten into trouble. That's an issue of residency not citizenship, so chances are that it's completely unrelated to what we're discussing. You could clear up that detail with more info, but you chose not to.

Many countries insist that you use their passport if you're a citizen. Argentina just happens not to be one of them.

If you have any argument with DNM, go have it out with them. But don't try and convince me that up is down. It isn't.

[sup]1. The only thing more obviously fallacious than appeal to (unrelated) authority, is an appeal to one's own unrelated authority - and then to bend over backwards pretending it is related.[/sup]

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Ben, you are wrong but you do not [want to] understand it.

I already got bored.

You do not want to learn, you think you know, be happy with that.

 

[ben]

Ben, you are wrong but you do not [want to] understand it.

I already got bored.

You do not want to learn, you think you know, be happy with that.

Never have more convincing arguments been spoken.

Brings to mind the old adage:
If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts.
If you have the law on your side, pound the law.
If you have neither on your side, pound the table.

Is it that difficult to admit you are wrong? Lots of smart people do it.

En síntesis... Argentines, especially foreign-resident ones, CAN come here on a foreign passport.

This is not a complicated issue. The DNM says it's allowed (see link above). Everyone does it. And you're out there threatening people with jail.

I have far too high an opinion of your intelligence to believe you don't know the difference between residence and citizenship... it happens to be your job.

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong... you've made your case, it just isn't borne out by the facts. Why is that so hard to understand admit?


In case you'll decide to be a better sport, we're still with 2 questions:

1. Are you (still) unaware that DNM explicitly, in writing, allows for Argentine citizens to present a foreign passport?
2. What was that story with this client of yours who was prosecuted for not showing his DNI extranjero? Who had demanded to see his passport and/or DNI?
That, of course, would let us assess what this has to do with the issue at hand. Which is, I suspect, precisely why you're hiding it.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Ben, I don´t understand how you are not ashamed of your ignorance and arrogance.

An argentine citizen who has not an Ar passport can arrive to the country on another passport but he cannot leave. Even this is obvious, my father and brother are residents of other countries and the renewal of the passports every time they come is an issue.

If you read the immigration law (look close to the end), there are heavily fines for the Air company that accepts a passenger without, in this case, the reciprocity fee.
The simplification of the legal system you imagine can only exist in your dreams, our legal system is alike the Spaniard where there are many different jurisdictions with different rules (fueros) but this is too sophisticated for you (no offense).

The precedent that establishes what I assert is part of my professional secret and I do not want to share it and, anyway, it is a waste because you cannot understand it.

Regarding my client, I m under professional secret.

But i gave you the information you need, google RENAPER Law and read it.

I feel free to explain you that you are clueless about the law of this country and your mistakes are so clumsy and your behavior so arrogant that the final answer is: it is like this because I say so because I m a registered profesional and this is all what you need to know.

However, there are as many opinions as professionals, but you are not one of them and this is why I cannot have a legal debate about this neither I m not interested about teaching.

Regards

 

[ben]

OK, so let's discard the ad hominems and try to parse out what you said that actually means something.

So, we left off with 2 questions. Both factual.

• The guidance the the Dirección Nacional de Migraciones provides, which clearly contradicts everything you've said on the subject.
  • I'll provide the link again - go ahead, read it, it won't bite you.
  • You've consistently answered everything except this, the most salient point - so I suspect you're quite clear on what this means.
• The circumstances of the case that you cited with your client and the DNI.
  • On its face, it concerns a completely different issue - a permanent resident who attempted to pass himself off as a tourist. The (mis)representation in this case concerns residency, not citizenship so on its face this was a stupid argument.
  • However, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and asked you for some basic context that would perhaps show
  • Your list of responses: professional secrecy which is absurd. You, not me, had brought this into the discussion, and I asked you for no identifying details: only to explain what we're dealing with. Particularly as on its face it concerns residency, not citizenship and is not relevant at all to the topic. If you can't explain what you're talking about, why did you mention it at all?
• "it is like this because I say so because I m a registered profesional and this is all what you need to know".
  • A registered professional who has often spouted verifiably false crap on this forum, including but not limited to: insisting that the Constitution Nacional governs the location where the ceremonial traspaso de mando takes place (the CN doesn't even mention that ceremony, let alone where it should happen); linking to Diario Registrado quoting forgeries of the New York Times; etc. And who never backs down. That's all I need to know.

Anyways, here's the executive summary:

• You made shit up, said Argentines aren't allowed to come in on a foreign passport.
• I showed you that's simply not true, based on both anecdotal evidence of everyone, and with the DNM directly contradicting you.
• Here's the link again - feel free to keep pretending it isn't there.
• You went ahead and doubled down, Trump-style: appealing to your own (irrelevant) authority, ad hominem insults, going on tangents that you the refused to give the smallest details about. In short, classic bajo.

So we can safely add this funny case to above the list of BS you've spouted.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Welcome to the ignore list.