Nightmare At Ezeiza

[sergio]

Y

As pointed out earlier, "not a thousand Macris' shall change 'Viveza Criolla' culture". Maybe in a generation or two.

Mari doesn't practice "Viveza Criolla"??????

 

[Rich One]

As pointed out earlier, "not a thousand Macris' shall change 'Viveza Criolla' culture". Maybe in a generation or two.

Not a chance.... Will the Calabrese or Sicilians ever change...?? The Macri's and Sciolis

 

[Girino]

Not a chance.... Will the Calabrese or Sicilians ever change...?? The Macri's and Sciolis

I'd be more worried about a Calabrese or Sicilian attitude than by viveza criolla. Viveza criolla is simply "I don't care", whereas the other tends more to "I *do* care, in fact, this is mine".
Anyway, despite most of you repeatedly said that the bad things of Argentina were due to Italian immigrants, I don't recognize this a lot (at least now)

Though 50% of Argentines are by Italian descendants, and most of them are of southern Italian descendant, specifically, I don't recognize in them the same features I observed in southern Italians in Italy. They talk differently, dress differently, act differently, eat differently, so I don't think that italian-argentines of southern Italian descendants have really much in common with southern Italy. I find the argentines quite homogeneous in their attitude and way to think, I can hardly recognize that "oh, this one must be of German descendant" or that makes me say "thi one is definitely a gallego".

It is my personal opinion (so, not a fact and I am open to discussion) that every country has a certain degree of corruption and malpractice, but they take different forms. Will it be in the corporatism form? The old-stile gangsta-mafia form? The bureaucratic-abuse form? The repressive-dictatorial form?

If Argentina wants to change, the changes must come from within and by every one of them, not just from the President. Of course, he has to open the way and give the political and lawful means to make changes, but I'd like to see Argentines behaving better also in the small things like not littering, letting pedestrian cross the road, do not pass people when queuing, not throwing anything but plastic in the plastic recycling bins, not tearing thrash leaving it exposed on the sidewalk, etc.

The party's name is Cambiemos, the subject is "us", plural. While most of the Argentines I have talked about looks like they are sitting on their couch waiting for the change to happen on the telly.

 

[Rich One]

I'd be more worried about a Calabrese or Sicilian attitude than by viveza criolla. Viveza criolla is simply "I don't care", whereas the other tends more to "I *do* care, in fact, this is mine".
Anyway, despite most of you repeatedly said that the bad things of Argentina were due to Italian immigrants, I don't recognize this a lot (at least now)

Though 50% of Argentines are by Italian descendants, and most of them are of southern Italian descendant, specifically, I don't recognize in them the same features I observed in southern Italians in Italy. They talk differently, dress differently, act differently, eat differently, so I don't think that italian-argentines of southern Italian descendants have really much in common with southern Italy. I find the argentines quite homogeneous in their attitude and way to think, I can hardly recognize that "oh, this one must be of German descendant" or that makes me say "thi one is definitely a gallego".

It is my personal opinion (so, not a fact and I am open to discussion) that every country has a certain degree of corruption and malpractice, but they take different forms. Will it be in the corporatism form? The old-stile gangsta-mafia form? The bureaucratic-abuse form? The repressive-dictatorial form?

If Argentina wants to change, the changes must come from within and by every one of them, not just from the President. Of course, he has to open the way and give the political and lawful means to make changes, but I'd like to see Argentines behaving better also in the small things like not littering, letting pedestrian cross the road, do not pass people when queuing, not throwing anything but plastic in the plastic recycling bins, not tearing thrash leaving it exposed on the sidewalk, etc.

The party's name is Cambiemos, the subject is "us", plural. While most of the Argentines I have talked about looks like they are sitting on their couch waiting for the change to happen on the telly.

Thanks Serafina a very interesting discussion. Could anyone dispute the views of a native Italian, who Knows well Southern Italy?

A few Comments though...!

Seems the Italian descents in Argentina are somehow higher than 50% according to the Hotel de los Inmigrantes figures, Three of the Presidential candidates were Italian descents and 2 of their wives.

Each immigrant group in Argentina is strongly attached to their native traditions, Chinese, Bolivian Armenian, Dominicanos, German, Welsh, Ukrainian, etc.
However YOU claim Italian descents in Argentina don't resemble at all their counterparts in Calabria or Sicily?
Italian descents in the USA follow all the Italian traditions, the Cannoli, Spaghetti and meat balls, Chianti Bottles, etc. They speak some Italian and their English has a particular accent. I lived for 5 years among the Italian community in Hoboken, NJ.
Why do Italian descents in Argentina LOST their Southern Italian traits...? A Phenomena to STUDY

 

[dennisr]

Quite a deal: Cresta Roja T.U.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1855656-cresta-roja-impensado-agujero-negro

 

[Idois]

I'd look at it through the HDI index, as it explains a lot and takes out some of the subjectivity, cognitive errors and bias. For example, the 2011 Human Development Index (HDI):

Italy: 87.4 (non-income HDI: 91.4, inequality adjusted HDI: 77.9)
Spain: 87.8 (non-income HDI: 92.0, inequality adjusted HDI: 79.9)
-----
Argentina: 79.7 (non-income HDI: 84.3, inequality adjusted HDI: 71.1)
Chile: 80.5 (non-income HDI: 86.2, inequality adjusted HDI: 66.1)
Uruguay: 78.3 (non-income HDI: 82.8, inequality adjusted HDI: 66.2)

 

[Gringoboy]

In July 2014 a judge in Esquel ruled that a peaceful protest that blocks a road isn't a crime when violence isn't used.
Further, that the protest allowed partial traffic movement.
Whether this has resulted in a precedent I'm not sure.
http://www.minutouno.com/notas/329822-la-justicia-considera-que-no-es-delito-cortar-rutas-protestas-pacificas

 

[Girino]

Why do Italian descents in Argentina LOST their Southern Italian traits...? A Phenomena to STUDY

I think it was a mix of factors:

1. The largest immigrant groups in Argentina were the Italian and the Spaniards, and the two already shared a lot of history (Romans in Spain, Borbone family in Southern Italy, Arabs all over)
2. Language was not much of a barrier for Italians when immigrating to Argentina, but it was for those immigrating to the US
3. Immigrations in the US included a greater variety of nationalities and all at the same time, so the birth of "closed circles" based on the common language was more likely to happen.
4. Immigration in the US lead to immigrants of a specific geographic provenience to found their towns/ciities and stick together. For example, the large group of Dutch in Pennsylvania, or the Swiss Amish in Ohio, etc.
5. Immigration in Argentina came to a halt during the 20th century as Argentina stopped developing and attracting people, whereas I feel that there is still a steady draw of immigrants toward the US.

As a consequence, I believe that integration in Argentina was easier, with fewer nationalities, fewer difficulties, and happened over a limited timespan. Since we are now at the 2-3-4th generation they have already blended seamlessly, the Italian and the Spaniards descendants. To put this in pictures, I see Argentina as a big "grey" area with smaller dots representing us, the immigrants of the 2000's; whereas I see the US as a dotted map all over, with some large areas that are black or white (no reference to skin complexion here), with few larger cities who are grey (I'd say NYC, but I don't know the others).

 

[Gringoboy]

"Why do descendants of Italians living in Argentina lose the traits attributed to Italians from the south of Italy?"
Yes, that's better.

 

[Gringoboy]

Looks like the Gendarmeria are preparing to move on the striking picket.
http://tn.com.ar/