Now I feel like a local - our first lawsuit ;)

[JoeBlow]

As far as I can see, the main problem in Argentina is that the majority of the population haven't yet made the transition from a feeling of being immigrants to being citizens together with the other Argentinos.

It is also my impression that the reason socially responsible capitalism works so well in Scandinavia is that the "we"s see "them" as part of the same tribe, a sort of cousins umpteen times removed, but still their cousins.

Well, I don't think Argentines have a problem assuming their identity as Argentines, but I would like to know how we can get people in Argentina and the US to see that the "we's" and the "them" are part of the same tribe--even if very distant cousins.

That would be THE revolution.

 

[John.St]

Well, I don't think Argentines have a problem assuming their identity as Argentines, but I would like to know how we can get people in Argentina and the US to see that the "we's" and the "them" are part of the same tribe--even if very distant cousins.

That would be THE revolution.

I haven't made myself clear.

My experience with Argentino friends is that each Argentino/-a sees him-/herself as an Argentino/-a, they do have nationalistic feelings (re. e.g. Malvinas/Falklands) - but not in common with the others, lacking the "sort of cousins umpteen times removed" as e.g. in Scandinavia (where even members of the different 5 nations see themselves somehow family-/tribe-related to members of the other 4 nations).

 

[fifs2]

My experience with Argentino friends is that each Argentino/-a sees him-/herself as an Argentino/-a, they do have nationalistic feelings (re. e.g. Malvinas/Falklands) - but not in common with the others, lacking the "sort of cousins umpteen times removed" as e.g. in Scandinavia (where even members of the different 5 nations see themselves somehow family-/tribe-related to members of the other 4 nations).[/quote]


I think the whole concept of nationalism and a sense of community is a pertinent one with regards to the thread. When first arriving and hearing patria, lucha and seeing flag wavers everywhere an expat gets the imemdiate impression that Argentineans are super nationalistic...but then when you have people cutting you up in the road or blocking the roads because their time/needs/issues are more valuable than yours you start to see that nationalism is at a very superficial level...it`s not a direct criticism, perhaps just the level of nationalism that any young country can develop over such a short history. This undoubtedly affects the employee, employer relationship where each may feel entitled to screw the other..how to fix it..sadly thats beyond my limited thinking. Maybe have the entrepreneurs and the flag wavers job swap for a week..and see how the shoe on the other foot fits

 

[JoeBlow]

perhaps just the level of nationalism that any young country can develop over such a short history.

Whay do (some) Argentines insist on saying they have such a young country?

 

[John.St]

Whay do (some) Argentines insist on saying they have such a young country?

I have heard it quite often and have a suspicion that it is sometimes (read: often) used as an excuse for problems and embarrasments: why Argentina isn't a first world country and why the majority of Argentinos aren't rich in proportion to the natural resources ("An estimated 40% of Argentine live on less than 8 US dollars per day" http://en.mercopress.com/2011/04/18...entine-live-on-less-than-8-us-dollars-per-day ).

Besides, they are right to some extent.

If you read Argentino history there is more than a little truth in that the country is at most 130 years old (although real independence dates back to 1816 - I wonder what will happen in 2016, given that independence day was celebrated last year ), and even less when one looks at population figures. As late as 1914 app. 30 percent of the population was foreign born (US at the same time 13 percent).

 

[JoeBlow]

If you read Argentino history there is more than a little truth in that the country is at most 130 years old

What do you mean by that?

 

[Amargo]

What do you mean by that?

Probably he means after most of the civil wars that happened in Argentina.

When first arriving and hearing patria, lucha and seeing flag wavers everywhere an expat gets the imemdiate impression that Argentineans are super nationalistic

For the largest part of the Argentines, nationalism is something which ends just after the national team goes back to the cabins.

 

[John.St]

What do you mean by that?

Several things.

In 1862 Mitre launched the drive to unite Argentina, then made up of many disparate provinces governed by caudillos. it took some 20 year to complete.

In 1869 the population was 1.7 million, increasing to 7.9 million in 1914 - 60 percent of them were immigrants.

In 1879 the size of Argentina was half the present size. The land south of a line through the middle of Mendoza, San Luis, southern Córdoba and the western border of provincia Buenos Aíres wasn't part of Argentina.

As already mentioned, in 1914 30 percent of the population were born elsewhere.

In that same year 70 percent of the farmers were unnaturalized immigrants and a large proportion af the immigrants were called golondrinas (swallows) because they moved back and forth between Europe and Argentina.

And more - BTW: stay away from Argentinian historybooks, too much propaganda - can't be trusted.

 

[Napoleon]

In 1879 the size of Argentina was half the present size. The land south of a line through the middle of Mendoza, San Luis, southern Córdoba and the western border of provincia Buenos Aíres wasn't part of Argentina.

So you're saying that 46 years after the re-establishment of British control of the Falklands, the southern 1/3->1/2 of Argentina still was not part of Argentina?

Claro!

 

[Amargo]

And more - BTW: stay away from Argentinian historybooks, too much propaganda - can't be trusted.

It could also be said about Chilean, American, British, Russian, Cuban history books.
If you want to read serious Argentine history try any of the books of Felix Luna.