Ok Buenos Aires here we come...

[syngirl]

@steveinbsas: Are you an expat? If you think so low of Argentina why on earth don't you come back to your home country, whatever that might be? Or at least provide a list of reasons why these guys should retire elsewhere. I'm a local, so you can call me biased, but I've had it with expats bitching about this country but not leaving just because it's cheaper for them to live here.

A lot of people continue living here only because they are attached to an Argentine... not to Argentina! Of course they complain, and better they complain on this board then start to villify their Argentine other half for keeping them in a country where they otherwise would not live.

 

[ElQueso]

@steveinbsas: Are you an expat? If you think so low of Argentina why on earth don't you come back to your home country, whatever that might be? Or at least provide a list of reasons why these guys should retire elsewhere. I'm a local, so you can call me biased, but I've had it with expats bitching about this country but not leaving just because it's cheaper for them to live here.

First, can we leave off asking the same damned question anytime anyone has something negative to say about Buenos Aires? I.e., "why are you here?", "why don't you go home if you're not happy, etc." I have a reason for this, which I will explain in a moment.

Second, this is an expat website. This is a place for EXPATS to post their honest experiences and feelings and help other expats figure out how best to live here. These are complicated things. Very few people can just say "I love this place and won't worry about the slightest thing that would cause others frustration, etc." At the very least it is common for Americans to complain about everything - INCLUDING THEIR OWN COUNTRY. I post what I honestly feel, always, and sometimes I feel like I have some little "conscience/PC guy" riding my shoulders, in the form of locals who read and post on these forums. I don't feel like I post negative about Argentina, but it sure is honest what I post, as I see things.

For you locals, get off it. If you don't like the comments we make, you don't have to be on this site, or you don't have to read the posts that disturb you. I think that you all provide, usually, honestly beneficial information, which is why I hope you're here. You are a valuable and appreciated resource, but part of our learning to live here is blowing off some steam about the adjustments that have to be made.

I resent (not greatly, but it's there) the feeling that I feel a pressure to not talk honest in a place where talking about these things should be very honest. If I do talk honest, I get the "why do you live here if you don't like it."

Argentina has some real problems and if you can't acknowledge that, you live in a different world than I do or you're simply not being honest. That doesn't mean that the US [or insert any other country here] doesn't have it's own set of problems - they all do. If you were living in the US, I would expect you to complain about things that you didn't like! This isn't anything personal, it's something that people who think about moving here need to know.

That's why Steve makes the comments he does in the way that he does. From posts I've read of Steve's, I think it's very obvious that he likes it here (as do I!), but like most of us who don't have our heads stuck in the sand know - living here is not for everyone! A large percentage of Americans (refer to my other post about using the term "American" in English because we don't have a word like "estadounidense" in English before anyone bashes me) are completely ignorant about how most of the rest of the world lives, right or wrong be it how they are living (I'm not passing judgement, just commenting).

That means that we know a large percentage of Americans will not be happy here. It's important that those who are coming down understand.

Perhaps Steve went a little overboard after Janet and Chad stated that they had done a thorough reading of the forum and understood that things were not State-like here. But he just wants to make sure.

Sorry for the little tirade about that. I intend to post my suggestions next, in a separate reply, so they will stand out

 

[mini]

BA was not a choice for retirement, just a starting point for the visit since we had Tigre, Palermo, and a few others in mind and decided that a good starting point is right in the middle of it all...

Palermo is IN Buenos Aires, unless there is another Palermo that I don't know about. (which is certainly possible!)

@steveinbsas: Are you an expat? If you think so low of Argentina why on earth don't you come back to your home country, whatever that might be? Or at least provide a list of reasons why these guys should retire elsewhere. I'm a local, so you can call me biased, but I've had it with expats bitching about this country but not leaving just because it's cheaper for them to live here.

Gonzo, I think you misunderstand Steve's point. & considering you are new here, that's not unexpected. He can be a bit curt. Having said that Steve does NOT hate it here, not at all. In fact, he owns his own home & AFAIK has no plans on leaving Argentina.

From what I understand of his point is that it's never a great idea to "decide to retire to a country" when you've never even been there. All he is saying is that you need to know what you are getting yourself into.

I'm certainly not one to tell people not to move somewhere if they've never been. We did and I have moved to a few countries and various cities I've barely (or never) visited before. But our has always been a temporary move. I'll move anywhere for a couple of years. I can always leave. Getting up & retiring to a country I don't know or buying property in a country I've only spent a few months in? Not so much. Bad idea.

I think the OP should hang around for while. Then see how they feel. I don't advice buying unless you've been here AT LEAST a year. Come on down!

 

[SaraSara]

Life is not easy for expatriates. They have no support network, and are isolated from Argentine society. Lacking local connections, they miss out on some of the best things Argentina has to offer. Things like extended families, or the strong web of lifelong friendships and the feeling of belonging they bring about.

That kind of support system helps us locals deal with the frustrations of everyday life. We always have a brother in law or a cousin thrice-removed who happens to be in the right job, or to know the right person to take care of a problem. Expats have to rely on the institutions, which barely work.

So, it is hard for them to lose their monetary advantage. Lacking friends and connections, they have to pay for much of what we locals have for free, as our birthright. Even when we are short of money there's always a relative or an old friend to lend us a beach house, an empty apartment, or a small farm to go for a vacation.

I see both sides of this issue, as I’m a local here but a foreigner in Colonia. Worse still: on the other side of the river I’m a member of that much despised tribe, the Porteños....! In Argentina I get many things for free, but in Colonia I'm subject to the Porteña tax, and routinely overcharged.

 

[ElQueso]

Chad and Janet (I'm sorry, but "Brad and Janet" comes to mind - I don't know who's familiar with Rocky Horror Picture Show...)

I think you guys are doing the right thing. You've done your research and you realize that there are some daunting tasks ahead of you if you want to retire here. You're coming down to check things out.

Buenos Aires is a good place to start. If you have seen the recent prices for temporary apartments at the size and location you think you need and are not turned off, rent an apartment for a month or two and do some exploring.

You don't want to rent for longer than one or two months at first. You can first get in touch with an area, see what it's like, and then maybe take a trip to Mendoza or Codoba and see what other places in Argentina are like. Make the trips to other cities relatively short at first - maybe a week or two

BTW - while you're in Buenos Aires, Tigre is an easy trip of a half hour to maybe an hour from the city. It's a cool place to check out, definitely.

Come back to Buenos Aires for another month or two, but choose a different part of the city. Buenos Aires, at first, can be a support area to get to know the country, the city, meet expats, move into things slowly, start speaking Spanish, get to know locals, not necessarily all in that order.

Maybe spend a year doing this. During this time, you will be living in an apartment most of the time in Buenos Aires. You will have a kitchen and cooking and eating utensils. You can start shopping at the local supermarkets, figure out what prices are like. What's available. Etc.

On one of your side trips to another part of the country (buses are cheap by the way - a good way to travel) you can compare prices of rentals, food costs, restaraunt prices, how the place feels, whatever.

You'll eventual get a feel for whether or not you like it here, or Cordoba, or Mendoza, or wherever. Or you may find out in a few months that you have questions about whether you would be happy here and a trip to another South or Central American (maybe even Mexico?) country might be a good thing to see if there is possibly another place you'd like to go.

It takes a lot of us about a year to get into life here and start to really get what some of the challenges can be. Some take a shorter time, some longer, but it takes a bit of time, no matter how much investigation you do, to really see what it's like. I'm sure you all realize that, I'm stating the obvious.

I have a couple of Argentine friends who live in Cordoba. I've visited there a couple of times. It is very different from Buenos Aires. I found it to be a very pleasant place overall - I'm not saying Buenos Aires doesn't have its pleasant points as well. I found the people to be very different on the whole. The accent was different - hard for me to understand, like tripping over the consonants in a mushy way or something and made it harder to understand than Porteños (having learned Mexican spanish first, years ago, I found it hard to adjust to "sh").

It's a cleaner, neater city. The suburbs (at least where we went) kind of have a much less obvious cut off point coming into the city. Seemed like there were more paved roads, or nicely prepared and leveled light gravel roads. The city is not as big, not as crammed full of buildings like Buenos Aires. Wider streets and walkways in the city center.

My friends there have told me that getting a rental in Cordoba is not only cheaper, but easier to come to an agreement over the lack of a garantia with owners. I have not tested that out, but on one of my trips there, we looked at a couple of houses and were very impressed by the cost to value ratio.

Point is, take your time and get to know the place. It sounds like that's the way you guys are headed. Good luck!

 

[SaraSara]

First, can we leave off asking the same damned question anytime anyone has something negative to say about Buenos Aires? I.e., "why are you here?", "why don't you go home if you're not happy, etc."

Some people criticize this country, but still see some things they like. However, there are those who see nothing positive in Argentina and still choose to remain here. I can understand that some are forced to stay, either because they are married to locals, or are posted here by their companies, or have a home they must sell before leaving. But some people are retired, or do their work online, and could live somewhere else.

Why then stay, if they see nothing but bad things about this place? There must be something keeping them here - I wish I knew what it is.

 

[ElQueso]

Why then stay, if they see nothing but bad things about this place? There must be something keeping them here - I wish I knew what it is.

They are probably the people who are unhappy anywhere they live! Or the only time they use the forum is to blow off steam and don't post the other parts of their experiences - shelfish and bitchy.

I agree that not everything is negative about Argentina and shouldn't be presented that way.

But Steve's comment and getting jumped on by gonzelius is a good example of this topic coming up without real cause too often, in my opinion.

 

[SaraSara]

Thanks for your explanation. Frankly, as a local, it is hard for me to see why foreigners would choose to settle in Buenos Aires. I would still be in Colorado if it wasn't for the fact that my whole family is here.

By the way, Steve was jumped on by gonzelius much as he jumped on me when I said that the US had become cheaper than Buenos Aires. What's sauce for the goose....

You REALLY don't know what you are talking about OR YOU ARE TRYING TO MISLEAD OTHERS!

Or you are trying so hard to be right (in spite of the facts of reality) that you only end up making a fool of yourself.

I've learned that this forum is not for the faint-hearted.

 

[ElQueso]

Thanks for your explanation. Frankly, as a local, it is hard for me to see why foreigners would choose to settle in Buenos Aires. I would still be in Colorado if it wasn't for the fact that my whole family is here.

Sometimes people just end up somewhere because fate took them there. On the balance things are better where they are than where they came from for whatever reason.

I used to work for an offshore drilling company in the 90s. I did software, managed development for the company, and often went on trips around the world. My first trip overseas was to India in '93 - a huge culture shock for someone as isolated as most Americans. Argentina is quite uncomplicated next to India...

I was always jealous of the guys who lived "exotic" lives in other countries. There was no place for a corporate IT guy in the local offices and we had no regional headquarters that would use us either. You had to be an engineer or a roustabout, a welder, etc, to get those assignments.

The best job locations were often the managers, at various levels, who worked onshore. They got to live in nice houses, often "on the beach" (that term in the oilfield means like "back home" but many managers literally lived in beach houses in many places).

I often stayed with the managers at the houses as a special guest (had to make the corporate guys happy - particuarly when you're talking about IT in the oilfield - many of the guys had a printout taped to the wall above the monitor of a guy smashing a computer with a sledgehammer. I enjoyed the different architecture, the different lifestyle, the different, exotic women.

I've always loved places different than where I grew up. I find that I would rather be living anywhere rather than the place I grew up. I didn't look deep and hard there, but I didn't see any life in the States that I felt was different enough.

Business brought me to Argentina. I stayed for a number of complicated reasons (including marrying an exotic, beautiful woman from Paraguay), but overall I enjoy it here.

I just get very frustrated when it comes time to change big things.

For example - it's time to find a new place to live, as the contract is coming up on my house. I've decided it's too expensive living outside of the city lately and I'm ready to come back in after spending a couple of years in the suburbs.

It's time to worry about the garantia, at any rate. Ugh.

 

[SaraSara]

Very interesting post - I don't know anything about oil companies' operations, or the lives of people working for them. Sounds a little like something out of Hemingway, or the stories about colonial India.

While looking for a new rental, don't overlook Belgrano or the areas just outside the General Paz, near the Tigre train line. They are green and relatively quiet, but not as isolated as the areas along the Panamericana.