Pomar Family

[Moxon]

I believe that Argentina is number or two in the world per capita for road deaths...

...Argentina leads the world with its horrific road toll

As often seems to be the case with you Pericles it depends on whether one constructs ones world from hearsay and vague notions of how things should be or facts. Like your comical claim that the Australian aboriginal population has the second worst quality of life in the world after China - I can find no evidence of your claims about Argentine road fatalities. There are many different statistical measures for road fatalities (and disagreement over which gives the more accurate picture), perhaps you can find one that ranks Argentina the worst in the world (though again, like your claim about the Aborigines -and the Chinese!- this would no doubt entail a very limited definition of 'world'). Anyhow this is irrelevant, here you are claiming on simple per capita terms Argentina is the worst (or second worst?) in the world.

Well, I guess at least here Argentina ranks fourth (albeit alphabetically).

 

[ElQueso]

First of all, I wouldn't believe a thing that came out of the Argentine government about its actual death toll related to traffic accidents. The summary of these sort of statistics come from the people who reported to the Argentine citizens, for example, 7-8% inflation in the middle of 25-30% real inflation.

Looking at the link that Moxon provided, Argentina is pretty much tied with the US for number of fatalities per 100K citizens. Let's look at why Argentina could be tied with the US as far as having a relatively low proportion of deaths per 100K citizens. The obvious one is that INDEC is not reporting proper statistics, but we won't even use that one. I would suspect the biggest reason is that not nearly as many people in Argentina have cars and drive as do in the US.

Argentina has a score of 13.7 fatalities per 100K of population (that's important - notice it's not per drivers in the population), while the US has a score of 13.9. Nearly everyone in the US, outside of a few cities like NY where it's very difficult to operate a car, has a car. Even poor people own a car in many (most?) cases (that's how it was in Houston anyway).

Notice the second column of statistics - fatalities per 1 billion vehicle kilometers driven. The US has 9, which is about in the middle of the list, whle Argentina doesn't even show up on that part of the list, presumably because it does not have enough vehicle-kilometers to show up.

So, Pericles - shame on you for either exaggerating Argentina's traffic deaths or for not backing up your statement with a reference, as far as it being the second worst country in the world for traffic fatalities However, that does not immediately nullify what Pericles was saying about the driving conditions and the risk on the roads here in Argentina.

The concentration of population in Argentina is largest in ONE CITY (BA), and the largest concentration of drivers is going to be found IN THE CITY as well. I'm working off the top of my head with numbers, but if I recall correctly the population of Argentina is roughly 36 million, with roughly 8 million (22% of the population) living in Capital Federal, and about 12 million (33% of the population) living oustide of Capital Federal, but still a part of Buenos Aires itself. That right there is going to skew the numbers quite a bit because in the city itself people don't normally drive as fast (though they still drive like idiots for the most part) and there are not as many possibilties for fatalities between cars in accidents.

I think that if there were some way of doing a true comparison of Argentine deaths by automobile accidents to the US and other countries we would find that there is a higher percentage of fatalities than other parts of the world.

Having said all of that, anyone who drives here OUTSIDE of the city (as opposed to inside the city where traffic is much slower and most fatalities, in my opinion, are probably caused by cars hitting pedestrians rather than car-on-car collisions [and I wonder if those are reported the same, as automobile fatalities]) has to have seen how freaking dangerous things are. There are twisted car wrecks all the time on the highways.

So according to those who enjoy lax laws, that's ok. No problem. Ignore speed limits. Ignore traffic lights and stop signs. Weave in and out of traffic like a maniac, going way too fast. Ride on another car's bumper, literally inches away because the person behind considers himself or herself too important to be held up.

It's one thing to ignore things like tax laws and other social, government-in-your-face laws. Personally, I support that 100%! The worst that usually happens there is some corrupt politician or someone else that needs to get paid off in some fashion isn't making his or her extra money. That money rarely gets spent on what it needs to get spent on anyway, and doesn't directly take lives.

But to me, ignoring traffic laws and saying that's ok because laws like that are stifling and taking away people's freedoms is like saying let's ignore laws on committing theft and murder because by damn, that's going to make things oppressive as well!

A little critical thinking never hurt anyone.

 

[perry]

Moxon once again you are trying to shoot the messenger but completely avoiding the issues. If Argentina is second, third or even 20th in the world it seems too high for a country with european aspirations.

As anyone who has driven in the Capital Federal at 5am in the morning or on the province roads which are like the worst of a video game would know the roads are damn dangerous. Statistics by government departments as well as by world bodies have been shown to be flawed and in many cases outright lies to create the conditions required for a certain case.

I have spoken to hundreds of people here and they all say that the roads are very dangerous and people drive like the devil possessed . Why are people in such a hurry?

Cars are weapons and should be treated with upmost care and the state must provide the best security for our children and loved ones. Is it too much to ask of our society and government to respect our safety .

 

[fifilafiloche]

I myself see on a daily basis the careless behaviour of its drivers on the roads of the Capital Federal .

Here we go, we hit some kind of truth. You are not more concerned about road tolls than your first roo toll with your shiny brand new 4x4 back in the bush, matey. What bothers you is that you can t adapt to the local way of driving, and daily frustration gets you posting down here.

The first time i rode in Shenzen, China, i felt terrorized. I was totally lost, i had to anticipate hazards coming from everywhere. The more i drove through the country, the easier it got, i started to think chinese, act chinese, feel chinese. I couldnt adapt as well to their way of spitting everywhere as well...but i worked on myself, remembering i was a foreign element in a foreign environment. I couldnt imagine telling the chinese "how wrong" this was with a typical colonial arrogant tone, even tho for sanitary reasons you could solidly argue against it.

Ang give credit to Buenos Aires to slowly but surely enforce law, on the example of Chile and Brazil. When i first got here, there was no problem not wearing a helmet, insurance was never asked. Now your vehicule can be impounded if you dont respect those very simple rules.

 

[mini]

There are other problems regarding road fatilities, not just how people drive and or disregard for the road rules.

The cars here are old & unsafe in an accident and then people don't wear thier seat belts.

A safer car and seat belts may have saved the lives of the Pomar family. Had the roof not crushed in and had they not been thrown from the car, had this dangerous curve been properly lit/indicated/had road barriers, perhaps the whole family would not have perished.

So there certainly are "road" related issues.

I also agree that the statistics are probably not 100% reliable. But the rates are probable similar to Mexico, Brazil and Venezuela and less likely to be like Northern Africa, or, well, Africa in general.

Exaggerating ones argument doesn't make it stronger. It actually does the opposite & makes it less believable.

 

[EvergreenGal]

It's another very sad tragedy with this family....and we will never know the exact reason they all lost their lives. But one thing I know for certain "speed kills"!

People drive way to fast for any road condtions here...I have seen it over and over..and I don't think it has much to do with the age of the cars...there seems to be more new cars on the road and/or well kept cars than clunkers. People don't know how to drive period and have no idea of the "rules of the road"...distance between cars....turn signals....following the basics would make huge difference!! Drive defensively instead of offensively...that would drop the stress level and accidents a great deal.

Back to my speed kills point....I have rarely seen a car that makes it out of an accident without being totaled...that means driving to fast...it really is simple...slow down!!!

The other thing is there are so many more cars on the road now than just 5 years ago...and many of the streets aren't meant for so much traffic...people also don't allow enough time to get from point A to point B...so they drive faster...it's a loosing situation until someone enforces the law all the time...not just when there's been a tragic accident or it's the holiday season or a long holiday weekend. Day in day out...the rules must be followed for everyone to make it home safe and sound...

 

[syngirl]

Don't forget about absolute lack of laws regarding carseats for children in Argentina. My father-in-law is driving our 2 year old niece to La Falda (9 hrs) this summer on some rather questionable roads. he'll be taking her back and forth between La falda and Carlos Paz to visit her mother. The road to Carlos Paz is full of twists and turns. He refuses to buy a carseat for the baby because it is too much money -- it's about 300 pesos. In other words, not even 3 tanks of gas. But he thinks it's just not worth the money, and the mother is of the same opinion (then again, she's the one leaving the baby behind for 2.5 months while she works some show in C. Paz)

According to the laws here:

En Argentina, la Ley de tránsito N° 24.449 establece que los menores de 10 años deben viajar en el asiento trasero, pero no existen especificaciones acerca de los sistemas de sujeción a utilizar. Según datos de un artículo publicado por la Sociedad Argentina de Medicina y Cirugía del Trauma, en nuestro país los accidentes de tránsito son " la primera causa de muerte en pacientes entre 1 y 18 años de edad y produce una gran cantidad de niños y adolescentes con discapacidades transitorias y permanentes". Por eso es importante destacar que "el uso correcto de los sistemas de sujeción en niños tienen una efectividad del 71 por ciento en la prevención de la muerte atribuible a accidentes de auto y de un 67 en la prevención de hospitalización por lesiones producidas en la colisión", destaca un artículo de la Sociedad Argentina de Pediatría.

 

[fifilafiloche]

Thank you so much syngirl, you made me understand i was a survivor, i never realised it before!

When i was a kid, my father used to let me climb on the little space behind the rear seats in our peugeot 504 when we were crossing France south to the mediterranean. I have wonderful memories of that time, watching the cars behind by day, a 180 degrees view over the country side, feeling the heat of the sun, and the stars by night...If he locked me in a baby seat (which didnt exist at that time), i cant imagine how bored i would have got during those long travels, and i would miss those early infancy dreams by night. I remember they would let me sit between the front seats, right behind the gearbox. I felt so proud to sit there, with the "adults", that was a promotion!

By willing to overprotect your kids, you dont prepare them to their future environment, which is full of hazards. The overmothered lil kid will never dare to take risks, will be scared by his shade, will never venture out of his nest. The baby bird will fall at his first trial to flying away.

Risks are just part of life. If you fear life (risks) too much, you are dead before you gave yourself a chance to enjoy life...welcome in the paradise of spychoanalysis, antianxiolitics and antidepressants...

 

[Ailujjj]

Are you seriously saying carseats are overprotective?

You're not a survivor, you're just lucky. Plenty of children have died in seemingly minor car accidents.

Being safe hardly impedes ones ability to view the world. Having been or not been in a carseat has nothing to do with why you think yours was the ideal childhood.

Finally - why can't this post have remained discussing a really sad outcome and not the usual absurd debate. I wouldn't have bothered but that whole overprotective rant just really annoyed me. It is the most fundamental instinct in the world to try and keep your kids safe and a carseat isn't excessive in the least.

 

[fifilafiloche]

No, Ailujjj, what you state as a universal norm is just your cultural asumption. In China, Bolivia,the norm for kids is to travel with their parents on motorcycles without helmets and they feel totally confortable about it.

What is true with distance is also true with time. 100 years ago, when we had larger families, this was totally acceptable to loose on child or two, this was regarded as something normal. There was no drama and life long culpabilisation.

I understand that your beliefs can be hurt while confronted to other cultures, but this is what travelling is about...learning from others, not willing to impose your standards to others.

In some parts of Canada, it is compulsary to wear a helmet, while in other not. Who is right? Those who want to take zero risks or those who want to enjoy the feeling of the wind on their hair?

Remember that, even tho Buenos Aires might look like a modern international town, it is still located in South America. Open your eyes, watch the kids sleeping in the streets, the horse propelled trailers collecting garbage...this is not homeland.

And yes, truth can be annoyingly politically incorrect, if you are not prepared to open your mind to other realities.

You stepped into another world