Preparing to go to colonia for 7th time! Eek!!

[CanuckleHead]

Well this certainly seems to be the 'eternal question' around this forum... There is and should be no question about the 'legality' of this issue... it is illegal... YOU know it and THEY know it. It is really a question about their 'incentive' to enforce it. And in this case there is very little.

For anyone who has spent a great deal of time in Argentina you know that they are not in the habit of enforcing laws for laws sake. Otherwise the OP would have encountered difficulties in the first 6 times he made the jump to Colonia.

The Government generally (like most Govt's) is more 'reactive' than 'proactive'... Meaning they usually need reason to take action, especially in the form of a 'crackdown'. Look at the recent nightclub tragedies... Did the laws against overcrowding exist? of course they did. Yet it took those horrific circumstances to really bring it to light. Truly, is this really SO different from our own governments in our respective countries? Probably not.

I can tell you that until recently they kept very little record of these infractions as up to just over a year ago, you paid a fine and signed a piece of paper... PERIOD... it was totally informal and a mere nuisance... This should tell you how seriously they took this issue which is to say 'not at all'. Yes this procedure has changed since they do enter your passport into a database now... But does this change their incentive to enforce this issue? Again, probably not.

What I do know is that I have known MANY who routinely take advantage of this from all walks of life... From students, to backpackers to businessmen and I have NEVER heard of anyone having issues... This is dating years back. Some who have GROSSLY overstayed as well as others who have entered MULTIPLE times yearly... The law exists so it CAN happen at any time... but generally does not.

Until the incentive to enforce the issue changes, I would not expect there to be a real change in attitude towards it.

 

[A&A]

Remember that after 24 month you became eligible for citizenship, stay under the radar until then. Regards

I know this issue has been covered ad nauseum on this board but I really think it is not proper, as a lawyer, to encourage this or suggest that it is a guarantee. This is a new legal theory/strategy (based on old possibly outdated legal precedent) which is still unproven. Sure you have filed some cases, but these have not been fully adjudicated to the point of citizenship granted. And the cases (especially that of the chinese immigrant already have a long legal history behind them and not as simple as, being here two years applied for citizenship).

It is similar to if I asked a doctor for a highly risky medical procedure and he says "well it has been attempted 2 or 3 times". That would certainly change the way I or any patient evaluates their options. Full disclosure is required instead of off-handed assurances without verifiable results.

 

[steveinbsas]

I know this issue has been covered ad nauseum on this board but I really think it is not proper, as a lawyer, to encourage this or suggest that it is a guarantee. This is a new legal theory/strategy (based on old possibly outdated legal precedent) which is still unproven. Sure you have filed some cases, but these have not been fully adjudicated to the point of citizenship granted. And the cases (especially that of the chinese immigrant already have a long legal history behind them and not as simple as, being here two years applied for citizenship).

Actually, I believe it is a provison of the Constitution of the Republic of Argentina. I was told about it when I arrived over four years ago. I did not consider it as an option to "legal immigration" at that time, but I am now eligible and I am considering it.

 

[LAtoBA]

At least an ultima prorroga gives 90 more days. After that you can remain in Argentina as an inhabitant.

I was under the impression that it does not necessarily have to be 90 days.

 

[steveinbsas]

I was under the impression that it does not necessarily have to be 90 days.

As far as I know, all of the ultima prorrogas issued at migraciones have been for 90 days. At least a "normal" prorroga de permenencia" (extension of stay) is always 90 days. I haven't heard of less time being given upon return from Colonia, but the agents will not extend an ultima prorroga or grant a new 90 day (tourist) visa to those who have the former. If you go to Colonia with three or five days left on an ultima prorroga, you will not get more time when you return.

Perhaps someone can cite an instance of a border agent granting a returning "perma-tourist" less than 90 days to leave the country. I simply don't remember anyone saying they were given less, but I think it's possible.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I was under the impression that it does not necessarily have to be 90 days.

Indeed.

[FONT=&quot]ARTICULO 61.- Cuando se verifique que un extranjero hubiere desnaturalizado los motivos que autorizaron su ingreso al territorio argentino o permaneciera en éste vencido el plazo de permanencia acordado, la DIRECCION NACIONAL DE MIGRACIONES lo intimará a fin de que, en un plazo que no exceda de TREINTA (30) días, se presente a regularizar su situación migratoria debiendo acompañar los documentos necesarios para ello. A tal efecto, se lo notificará por escrito informándole, de un modo comprensible, las consecuencias que le deparará mantenerse en la situación migratoria advertida.

In fact, they should give you a maximum of 30 days but they might deny your entry too.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] It `s up to each migration inspector.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
ARTICULO 35.-
a) Rechazo en frontera: Cuando se dispusiere el rechazo en frontera de un extranjero, la autoridad migratoria arbitrará los medios necesarios para que su reconducción fuera del territorio argentino se realice en el menor tiempo posible.[/FONT]

Regards

 

[steveinbsas]

Well this certainly seems to be the 'eternal question' around this forum... There is and should be no question about the 'legality' of this issue... it is illegal... YOU know it and THEY know it. It is really a question about their 'incentive' to enforce it. And in this case there is very little.

For anyone who has spent a great deal of time in Argentina you know that they are not in the habit of enforcing laws for laws sake. Otherwise the OP would have encountered difficulties in the first 6 times he made the jump to Colonia.

The Government generally (like most Govt's) is more 'reactive' than 'proactive'... Meaning they usually need reason to take action, especially in the form of a 'crackdown'. Look at the recent nightclub tragedies... Did the laws against overcrowding exist? of course they did. Yet it took those horrific circumstances to really bring it to light. Truly, is this really SO different from our own governments in our respective countries? Probably not.

I can tell you that until recently they kept very little record of these infractions as up to just over a year ago, you paid a fine and signed a piece of paper... PERIOD... it was totally informal and a mere nuisance... This should tell you how seriously they took this issue which is to say 'not at all'. Yes this procedure has changed since they do enter your passport into a database now... But does this change their incentive to enforce this issue? Again, probably not.

What I do know is that I have known MANY who routinely take advantage of this from all walks of life... From students, to backpackers to businessmen and I have NEVER heard of anyone having issues... This is dating years back. Some who have GROSSLY overstayed as well as others who have entered MULTIPLE times yearly... The law exists so it CAN happen at any time... but generally does not.

Until the incentive to enforce the issue changes, I would not expect there to be a real change in attitude towards it.

There's a new sheriff in town. The new decreto gives migraciones police powers: something they did not have until September.

Things have changed. You'd have to be a CanuckleHead not to realize it.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

For anyone who has spent a great deal of time in Argentina you know that they are not in the habit of enforcing laws for laws sake. Otherwise the OP would have encountered difficulties in the first 6 times he made the jump to Colonia.

Wrong, before decreto 616-2010 they were focus on border line countries`s immigrants. Not any more. Before this decreto there was no deportation law. Now....guess what.

But does this change their incentive to enforce this issue? Again, probably not

If you really believe this I asume you are going to be a crash test dummie. Aren`t you?

What I do know is that I have known MANY who routinely take advantage of this from all walks of life... From students, to backpackers to businessmen and I have NEVER heard of anyone having issues... This is dating years back. Some who have GROSSLY overstayed as well as others who have entered MULTIPLE times yearly... The law exists so it CAN happen at any time... but generally does not.

Heeeellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, there is a new law since 9.9.2010, please read decreto 616-2010.

Until the incentive to enforce the issue changes, I would not expect there to be a real change in attitude towards it.

Well, I can tell you what I know from feedback, I am not speculating. The rise in requirements for investor and rentista visa is all about chinese citizens. There are 70.000 arriving per year and about 700.000 irregulars. Students visas are over too, specially for chineses.

Since this new decreto was enacted they are using it.

The second target are dominicans, I have several cases, they really want to deport them because they have the prejudice that dominicans works about prostitution. Right! This is true about any nationality.

The decreto is a direct order from the president, this is not a law, it means that if they don`t follow it they are in troubles.

I know that at the visa renewal desk at the DGM building they are enforzing it in a nice way giving 90 days last prorroga when they should give you 30 days. Once you have this, the deportation procedure should beging. We have a greek girl friend of mine that made that mistake because...she didn´t want to be "illegal".

To enforce the decreto is very easy, a stamp in your passport.

So, why should you put yourself in risk going to a border control??????????

Because we have the innocense legal status until is enacted a sentences that says you are illegal. This can only happend if you are stupid enought to go to Colonia. Is it clear?

On the other hand, Supreme Court said that a tourist is the person who is just watching the argentinian social life but is not involved. Otherwise you are an inhabitant and you have same civil rights than citizens. In fact, I have 2 cases of perma-tourist at Court. They were aceptedi, they will be citizens soon.

Regards

 

[CanuckleHead]

There's a new sheriff in town. The new decreto gives migraciones police powers: something they did not have until September.

Things have changed. You'd have to be a CanuckleHead not to realize it.

Ummm... New powers... But It has always been 'illegal' and up to the discretion of the officials, until there is 100 percent across the board accountability nothing has really changed.

 

[CanuckleHead]

Wrong, before decreto 616-2010 they were focus on border line countries`s immigrants. Not any more. Before this decreto there was no deportation law. Now....guess what.



If you really believe this I asume you are going to be a crash test dummie. Aren`t you?



Heeeellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, there is a new law since 9.9.2010, please read decreto 616-2010.




Well, I can tell you what I know from feedback, I am not speculating. The rise in requirements for investor and rentista visa is all about chinese citizens. There are 70.000 arriving per year and about 700.000 irregulars. Students visas are over too, specially for chineses.

Since this new decreto was enacted they are using it.

The second target are dominicans, I have several cases, they really want to deport them because they have the prejudice that dominicans works about prostitution. Right! This is true about any nationality.

The decreto is a direct order from the president, this is not a law, it means that if they don`t follow it they are in troubles.

I know that at the visa renewal desk at the DGM building they are enforzing it in a nice way giving 90 days last prorroga when they should give you 30 days. Once you have this, the deportation procedure should beging. We have a greek girl friend of mine that made that mistake because...she didn´t want to be "illegal".

To enforce the decreto is very easy, a stamp in your passport.

So, why should you put yourself in risk going to a border control??????????

Because we have the innocense legal status until is enacted a sentences that says you are illegal. This can only happend if you are stupid enought to go to Colonia. Is it clear?

On the other hand, Supreme Court said that a tourist is the person who is just watching the argentinian social life but is not involved. Otherwise you are an inhabitant and you have same civil rights than citizens. In fact, I have 2 cases of perma-tourist at Court. They were aceptedi, they will be citizens soon.

Regards

Actually no need to reiterate.. I got it.

I agree AND I understand what you are saying... In fact it is actually what I meant.. Until we know exactly who the decreto is targeting and if it is being unilaterally applied... it is impossible to know exactly how it will be enforced... This was exactly my point.