Smoking Pot Like A Pack Of Cigs....

Well, where to start. Personally I don't smoke 'the herb' but believe that a logically consistent and coherent cost benefit analysis is rarely employed in evaluating the relative merits/demerits of criminalisation/prohibition versus legalisation/regulation.

This seems to be the case both in the i) theoretical sense (the elements selected to be balanced on either the cost or benefit side are picked arbitrarily to give a pre-determined 'answer' rather than using a more holistic and coherent approach to cost/benefit element selection pre-analysis) and the ii) evidential cost benefit analysis (suffers from this same 'partisan element selection' problem but also suffers from an additional problem whereby cultural specific data/results are generalised to give specific 'answers', [e.g. applying the Portugal or Holland data to predict what this would mean in other cultures] a subsidiary issue here relates to partisan element selection often ignoring data from the globalised reality of illicit production and this related impact across borders. In other words costs and benefits are evaluated within a nation and not across them).

A further, and at first blush insurmountable, methodological obstacle is that of incomensurability between disparate elements or data. How can one weigh the cost of a negative health impact for an individual in a western country against the risk of torture or more severe cartel or government violence in a 'producing' country (assuming for example illegality in both locations). I will come back to this later, but for now let's hold this though.

Let's move away from the usual intellectually dishonest element selection and get back to a more coherent approach then. In order to more justifiably evaluate the costs and benefits it would first be necessary to make several analytical distinctions. We could, for example, take a fairly uncontentious approach as follows: Everyone can agree that their are both individual and social implications to both legalisation and prohibition. Further most would also agree that implications can further be divided across national, international and transnational geographies. So if we assume the importance of elements along both a broad and narrow selection we can reach the most complete scope for our initial analysis. Right now we have 3 core element selection areas (individual level, social level , national/globalised level) We could then think of several potential costs and benefits at each of these conceptual levels and ask how they would manifest within a state of legality or a state of illegality (ideally one would want to collect actual data across each variable type but one could also make logical assumptions and speculate in other justifiable ways). One may list, for example both negative and positive effects across variables such as: individual physical health, individual psychological health, individual economic issues, social cultural, social economic, social structural organisation, exploitation by criminal enterprise, exploitation by governmental structure, transnational commerce. These are but a few examples, a more exhaustive list would of course be required to investigate the issue beyond the cursory methodological level at which we are currently aiming.

This being said I personally am of the view that when comparing the costs and benefits of legalisation versus the costs and benefits of illegality we would more than likely see that the prohibition itself provides a kind of global cost which far outweighs the purported benefits of legalisation. This is what I was suggesting was the case despite my incomensurability point earlier. Even if it were true that legalisation would increase consumption and therefore, let's say, related domestic health costs (which the cultural specific data of Portugal for example does not show, it shows the opposite; a decrease of consumption post legalisation). So even if we were to ignore this data and assume that legalisation would increase individual, social and national level health costs in a consumption country this would imho be offset by the related reduction in costs in an exporting producing country. The type of costs saving in the producing country, moreover, may not be directly commensurable but would be on a different value scale to those (also debatable) health costs in the consumer country. Gang warfare over production territories, militarisation of whole countries, large quantities of ilicit money corrupting political, economic and social development in the supply countries and all the related spilt blood and lost opportunity as a result would probably tip the balance quite far in one direction.

As I said before, and I am being slightly guilty of this myself, a serious cost benefit analysis would have to be done across various elements to reach a proper answer; to pick favourable variables is in itself is not really justifiable. Even so, with all the data we have currently available the very least what ought to be done is to seriously consider experimentation and re evaluation of current global legal frameworks. In this regard I praise Uruguay's attempts.

A further problem which is perhaps worth mentioning relates to the politicisation of the topic. What I mean by this is that both in democracy and dictatorship the political classes have certain topics/discourses/logics which are used instrumentally in the perpetuation of the status quo and related power structures. These issues usually take on a functionality in politics which goes beyond the logic of the contents which the discourses represent. Moreover the ideological investment put into certain closed and simplified 'political slogans or messages' can be very hard for the political classes to break free from once they have adopted them in this instrumental manner. This is the case despite contradictory independent, non political, coherent and logical evaluations/research, whether scientific, social or moral. We can see this clearly in the UK where every few years an independent expert committee or royal commission is set up to investigate drug legality/legalisation, generally they make detailed cost benefit analysis and recommend that cannabis should be decriminalised or recategorised. The government of the day always ignores this recommendation.

PS; Sorry for the lack of clarity but half way through writing this I realised I may have bitten off more than I can currently chew. I in any case have decided to post it despite the possibility that I may be producing more heat than light... o_O

Thoughts... ? :)
You are as clear as day mate and I share your views. I find it quite ironic that you mentioned the costs/benefits being arbitrarily pre-determined as that is exactly the same issue with the politicisation of the topic as you put it.Its the conquering of that moral bias in the socio-political spectrum that leaves a lot to be desired, of which Red has merely hightlighted the implications of such bias with examples of U.S participation in different corners of the world.

PS; Also agree with you on the biting off more than you can chew part lol.
 
Are you sure you don't smoke weed? Because the only time I indulge in that kind of long-winded sesquipedalianism is after burning a lot of rope...

At least in the USA, the initial justification offered by Harry Anslinger for outlawing cannabis was blatantly racist; he openly used the N-word. And the arguments have gone nowhere but further from rationality since then.

Today, the rabidly anti-cannabis position adopted by Uncle Sam is used as an excuse for political domination, an excuse for the DEA and every other alphabet soup agency to have a presence in client states like Colombia. This is especially raw when contrasted to the gross increase in Opium production in Afghanistan under the US occupation. That opium production allows for the collection of huge under-the-table revenues by the US intelligence community, and of course the same thing was done in Southeast Asia during the interminable US wars there.

So while your outline of methodologies may be rational, it assumes the availability of untainted data, which absolutely does not exist, and will not be allowed to exist.

I would suggest that a far simpler and more pragmatic approach is simply to view it as an issue of individual sovereignty.

Thanks for teaching me this new word; [background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]sesquipedalianism ! o_O[/background]

And no, I don't use cannabis, I just find political and social issues of interest and have a heavy bias towards logic, philosophy as well as the social and political sciences. I am also fervently against the dumbing down of matters which I feel are important and so would rather go into detail, and on occasion even share my thoughts, as opposed to merely contributing to a culture which daily seems to move in the direction of banality, baseless assertion and convenient yet ultimately substantively vacuous sounbites or rhetoric.

Your points on the politisisation of the legality vs ilegality debate are interesting and to some degree may even contain a kernel of truth. On the other hand your idea that all data is 'tainted' and therefore worthless seems like a cop out to me. The fact that the data on 'drug cartel related deaths' in mexico, for example, are not perfect does not mean that they are insignificant. The data on cannabis as being effective in the treatment of glaucoma is also not perfect, but has some probatory worth. Indeed you would be better advised to check the funding sources for various sources of data on a case by case bases to determine their veracity and independence rather than using such a broad brush 'it's all tainted' approach. Your statement is also somewhat self defeating in relation to your other assertions. You make claims about the political reasoning for the current prohibition presumably based on some data, which in your case is not 'tainted' or do I misunderstand something? :)

As far as your individual sovereignty argument goes, I don't really know what you mean. If you mean something like John Stuart Mills Famous 'On Liberty' type argument then you are assuming that cannabis usage only effects the individual who is using it and nothing further. This may in some narrow sense be possible where every cannabis user to grow his own and therefore massively delimit his impact on broader social and national spheres but this is just not descriptively true of the majority of users. As I alluded to in my first post most of the 'right on' cannabis smokers are funding very nasty illegal organisations who have no qualms in using their profits in intimidation, the trafficking of people and arms etc. This may well be due to the prohibition itself but to say that cannabis use in the current global reality is a matter of individual sovereignty is not intellectually honest. It is of course true that simplified and 'pragmatic' approaches such as the one you suggest are easier to digest than more nuanced analysis, unfortunately they also usually don't hold upto scrutiny and therefore result in only rhetorical value (incidentally this is the same approach the very governments you criticise take). What we are then left with is 'convincing through power' instead of convincing through logic or coherence. I suggest you re evaluate lest you end realising the famous Nietzsche aphorism:"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you" :D

In any case, I was for the most part presenting a view on how a real cost benefit analysis ought to work and further suggesting (on topic) that the Uruguay experiment is a good starting point given the intuitive and fairly uncontentious relative values at play.
 
Anyone from Nor-Cal in the forum? Do you know where Mendocino region is? I , once had an acquitance living in Bolinas beach earning his living by fishing for black rock fish then taking the catch all the way to San Francisco's famed china-town then unloading his catch thus earning the daily bread, so I thought. Was very wrong! He was doin' that as a front...His real money making was- having hectares
of that ilicit weed plantation called, _Sin semillas_that yielded the gigantic "candle stick" buds and now he is behind bars....

That's a crying shame about him going to jail. Mendocino county is justly famous for weed production, but the DEA has no mercy. Which is one reason why I was so unhappy to see the news that Argentina is inviting the DEA back into the country.
 
Thanks for teaching me this new word; [background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]sesquipedalianism ! o_O[/background]

And no, I don't use cannabis, I just find political and social issues of interest and have a heavy bias towards logic, philosophy as well as the social and political sciences. I am also fervently against the dumbing down of matters which I feel are important and so would rather go into detail, and on occasion even share my thoughts, as opposed to merely contributing to a culture which daily seems to move in the direction of banality, baseless assertion and convenient yet ultimately substantively vacuous sounbites or rhetoric.

Your points on the politisisation of the legality vs ilegality debate are interesting and to some degree may even contain a kernel of truth. On the other hand your idea that all data is 'tainted' and therefore worthless seems like a cop out to me. The fact that the data on 'drug cartel related deaths' in mexico, for example, are not perfect does not mean that they are insignificant. The data on cannabis as being effective in the treatment of glaucoma is also not perfect, but has some probatory worth. Indeed you would be better advised to check the funding sources for various sources of data on a case by case bases to determine their veracity and independence rather than using such a broad brush 'it's all tainted' approach. Your statement is also somewhat self defeating in relation to your other assertions. You make claims about the political reasoning for the current prohibition presumably based on some data, which in your case is not 'tainted' or do I misunderstand something? :)

As far as your individual sovereignty argument goes, I don't really know what you mean. If you mean something like John Stuart Mills Famous 'On Liberty' type argument then you are assuming that cannabis usage only effects the individual who is using it and nothing further. This may in some narrow sense be possible where every cannabis user to grow his own and therefore massively delimit his impact on broader social and national spheres but this is just not descriptively true of the majority of users. As I alluded to in my first post most of the 'right on' cannabis smokers are funding very nasty illegal organisations who have no qualms in using their profits in intimidation, the trafficking of people and arms etc. This may well be due to the prohibition itself but to say that cannabis use in the current global reality is a matter of individual sovereignty is not intellectually honest. It is of course true that simplified and 'pragmatic' approaches such as the one you suggest are easier to digest than more nuanced analysis, unfortunately they also usually don't hold upto scrutiny and therefore result in only rhetorical value (incidentally this is the same approach the very governments you criticise take). What we are then left with is 'convincing through power' instead of convincing through logic or coherence. I suggest you re evaluate lest you end realising the famous Nietzsche aphorism:"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you" :D

In any case, I was for the most part presenting a view on how a real cost benefit analysis ought to work and further suggesting (on topic) that the Uruguay experiment is a good starting point given the intuitive and fairly uncontentious relative values at play.

tl;dr
 
I said I wasn't going to, but this came up in the headlines today...

http://presstv.com/d...admits-to-rape/


A former BBC presenter has admitted to the indecent assault of a teenage girl in the late seventies, but has denied 20 other counts of sexual assault.

Until lately, Hall was a well-known voice on BBC radio, where he commented on English Premier League football for over a decade.

The consequences of soccer.
 
Back to the original topic of legalized marihuana in Uruguay. Let's remember that alcohol kills more people than marihuana. People got out to bars and parties, get drunk and plastered, than attempt to drive home and end up hitting someone. People who use weed usually smoke pot at home and get stones and get the munchies. Drunk people start fights in the street, alcoholics abuse their spouses and children, and people that get stoned are much more peaceful.
 
Back to the original topic of legalized marihuana in Uruguay. Let's remember that alcohol kills more people than marihuana. People got out to bars and parties, get drunk and plastered, than attempt to drive home and end up hitting someone. People who use weed usually smoke pot at home and get stones and get the munchies. Drunk people start fights in the street, alcoholics abuse their spouses and children, and people that get stoned are much more peaceful.
And the point here is what? Be altered but be peaceful.
 
And the point here is what? Be altered but be peaceful.
I would be inclined to think that nlaruccia is simply emphasising her perception of a relatively lesser negative externality to society, in comparison to alcohol however debatable that might might be.
 
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