Social Anthropology Musings On Bsas, Continued

[Cialu]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]In a very interesting post below, some cultural differences between Argentines and comparable European cultures were discussed - eg Italian, Spanish -- which was also correlated to a different vibe and reality of everyday life in big cities ( BsAs vs Madrid/Barcelona/Paris/NYC). [/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]What i am curious about , - and i'm too lazy to do real research on this - is whether these cultural differences are a result of history-induced attitude change/genetics vs environment/politics/economic development etc. How did it come about? why? I don't know enough to extrapolate. Thing that i would love to know:[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]- that at some point, 90% of BsAs population were all spanish/italian immigrants, or metisos whcih came out of marriages with locals - so genetically very similar to mediterranean/spanish/Italian nations, so: why such drastically different cultural norms and values? why people act and behave and feel differently? specific examples: dress/attitude to women/to future/to what professionalism means/to meaning of life and relationships (see numerous topics on dating argentine men/women etc.[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]- spanish colonization happened in many other Lat Am countries, why Argentina so different /unique as compared to Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico, etc; similarly, all American countries (except Iceland) were founded only a few hundred yrs ago so it's not about 'building a national identity' and 'young country' etc[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]- open minded vs closed minded society, in relation to the world (no, not about gay marriages and sex prior to marriage) - receptivity to new cultural trends and possibilities, change and flexibility in society and economics and policies, etc, dealing with outdated and beurocratic systems in 21st c. etc, acceptance of horrific in society (eg women's slave trade)[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]- socialism vs democracy? i've mentioned in an earlier trend how frequently i see references to old Russian style of life daily. Eg dog poop/limited food choices/bitching about the system with zero wish to change it, living with broken streets, power shortages (to point of having no water for days), seeing no future vs daily survival, etc. Here there is even more: a famous 'Russian soul" equates in generosity of spirit to the famous Argentine friendliness and charisma, but cleaning streets, or , in Russia, stealing in workplace, were norms . [/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]- Tourism is heavily desired in both countries, will likely bring in tremendous resources if expanded , and powers that be understand importance of it, and need for safety and security and clean pavements for this; nothing done. [/background]

 

[Joe]

This question has been asked and answered on this thread: http://baexpats.org/topic/24466-are-the-italians-to-blame-for-argentinas-demise/page__hl__sicily

 

[Cialu]

This question has been asked and answered on this thread: http://baexpats.org/...age__hl__sicily

Thank you very much for the link, i was hoping for a humanistic, not historical, approach from people here today

 

[sesamosinsal]

You all talk about this country like it's on a different planet, and Argentines are a different species.

Sigh. All of those problems you mention occur in many countries. They are not unique to Argentina.

 

[Ries]

I think genetics are a very small part of it.
Italians, for instance, immigrated to a lot of different places 100 years ago- and the Italian communities in New Jersey, Buenos Aires, and New Orleans are all completely different.
Most real Italians, from Italy, wouldnt recognize half of the "traditional" Italian things, foods, habits and "culture" in each of these places.

For instance, Sorrentinos, which are considered very Italian in Argentina, dont exist in Italy.
And when "Italians" from New Jersey go to Italy, they are completely different in virtually every way from real Italians.

I think Argentina evolved its own, distinct culture, based on what it started with- Spanish, French, Italian, Belgian,Lebanese, Eastern European Jews, German, and English immigrants, based on its economic system, its geographic location, and lots of other unique things. Put the exact same immigrants, many from the same villages, in New Jersey, and you get Snooki.

Its kind of like how, when the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" was shown in Greece, the cultural drift in the US was so much that real Greeks found it an insulting parody that bore little resemblance to Greek reality.

Hakim Bey has a saying- Cultural Drift is Sacred Drift- by which he means that in every location, cultural change is both inevitable, and desirable.

They dont eat Fuggazeta in Sicily.

 

[Rich One]

Maybe the immigrants that went to New Jersey were from a different region of Italy i.e. Genova. A great number of the Italian inmigrants in Argentina , came from Naples, Calabria , Sicily, and the deep south of the boot!!!
No Sorrentinos in Sorrento? will check on that?

 

[Ries]

New Jersey is FULL of sicilian descendents. Just like Buenos Aires.
There are more than 2 million descendents of Italian immigrants in Jersey, and most were from Sicily and the south.
http://njitalia.nj.gov/

The majority of the italian immigrants to New Orleans were from Sicily as well.
http://www.neworlean...ry/italian.html
And New Orleans has italian bits and pieces just as fully integrated into its fabric as BA does. A New Orleans accent is not southern- its a lot like a jersey accent.

Both locations are relevant to this discussion because people from the same villages moved there at the same time as their relatives and neighbors went to Argentina, and yet the societies developed completely differently.


In Italy, there are dishes "ala Sorrentino", which means a tomato sauce with big chunks of tomato, and, usually, fresh mozzarella. But there is no pasta shape named "Sorrentino" that resembles a round ravioli. That is entirely an Argentine invention.

A similar example would be the muffaletta- the signature "traditional" italian sandwich in New Orleans. Which, again, doesnt exist in Italy, even though the word does mean a type of bread. But every Italian from the big easy would swear its as Italian as any food could possibly be. And any Italian from Italy would look at it with wonder and call it american food.

 

[Rich One]

New Jersey is FULL of sicilian descendents. Just like Buenos Aires.
There are more than 2 million descendents of Italian immigrants in Jersey, and most were from Sicily and the south.
http://njitalia.nj.gov/

The majority of the italian immigrants to New Orleans were from Sicily as well.
http://www.neworlean...ry/italian.html
And New Orleans has italian bits and pieces just as fully integrated into its fabric as BA does. A New Orleans accent is not southern- its a lot like a jersey accent.

Both locations are relevant to this discussion because people from the same villages moved there at the same time as their relatives and neighbors went to Argentina, and yet the societies developed completely differently.


In Italy, there are dishes "ala Sorrentino", which means a tomato sauce with big chunks of tomato, and, usually, fresh mozzarella. But there is no pasta shape named "Sorrentino" that resembles a round ravioli. That is entirely an Argentine invention.

A similar example would be the muffaletta- the signature "traditional" italian sandwich in New Orleans. Which, again, doesnt exist in Italy, even though the word does mean a type of bread. But every Italian from the big easy would swear its as Italian as any food could possibly be. And any Italian from Italy would look at it with wonder and call it american food.

Ries you are full of meaningful data. I went to College in Joysey!!! and braved the Hoboken waterfront, pizza by the slice "parlors"?? All businesses had to pay for protection, it was mafia territory..!! My landlord was a Calabrese Port Teamster ,pay the rent or else!! It was before the fancy skyscraper condos were built overlooking the NY skyline.

A key component in the Pizza flavor was the sweaty topless backside of the Pizzero than hit the dough on his shoulders and back before tossing in the air..... :wub:No canoli though...!!

Hoboken is the Garden City of Joysey!! The hometown of Frankie Sinatra the only child of Italian immigrants Natalie Della (Garaventa) from Calabria and Antonino Martino Sinatra from Sicily.

 

[Cialu]

New Jersey is FULL of sicilian descendents. Just like Buenos Aires.
There are more than 2 million descendents of Italian immigrants in Jersey, and most were from Sicily and the south.
http://njitalia.nj.gov/

The majority of the italian immigrants to New Orleans were from Sicily as well.
http://www.neworlean...ry/italian.html
And New Orleans has italian bits and pieces just as fully integrated into its fabric as BA does. A New Orleans accent is not southern- its a lot like a jersey accent.

Both locations are relevant to this discussion because people from the same villages moved there at the same time as their relatives and neighbors went to Argentina, and yet the societies developed completely differently.


In Italy, there are dishes "ala Sorrentino", which means a tomato sauce with big chunks of tomato, and, usually, fresh mozzarella. But there is no pasta shape named "Sorrentino" that resembles a round ravioli. That is entirely an Argentine invention.

A similar example would be the muffaletta- the signature "traditional" italian sandwich in New Orleans. Which, again, doesnt exist in Italy, even though the word does mean a type of bread. But every Italian from the big easy would swear its as Italian as any food could possibly be. And any Italian from Italy would look at it with wonder and call it american food.

Ah, but the whole point is - it's not 'descendants' it's transplants - because of it's isolation , induced or otherwise, Argentina could have followed it's own path dictated by these Italians/Spaniards, no? in a social vacuum of sorts, or interacting w neighboors?

 

[Ries]

Argentina definitely DID follow its own path- my point is just that it wasnt "dictated" by Italians and Spaniards, because Italians and Spaniards from the same towns who immigrated at the same time did different (but in some cases related) things in different countries.

Certainly isolation, physically, might have had something to do with it- although I would argue there has been a vigorous cultural exchange between Argentina and both Europe and the rest of Latin America for over 100 years.
Argentina has always been the place of refuge for the politically incorrect from Spain, and, more recently during Pinochet, Chile.
Argentina has been, since before the second world war, the biggest publisher of Spanish language literature.
So to say that Argentina is isolated, culturally or intellectually, hasnt been true since the 19th century, and its certainly not true now.

I am a bit confused by your Russian comparisons, too.
Russia has been so much worse, in so many ways, for so many hundreds of years, that to compare the occasional power shortage or political corruption here, with there, is kind of extreme.

Argentina has had, and continues to have, a very large middle class. There is nothing resembling that in Russia, nor has there been, pretty much ever.
Russians drink themselves to death by the tens of thousands, are constantly at war with somebody or other, and have been a society of peons ruled by royalty for hundreds of years. Its a very violent society. It just doesnt map out to Argentina any way I can see. In terms of police corruption, Argentina is better than Chicago, and no comparison with Russia. In terms of potholes, its better than Detroit, and no comparison with Russia. In terms of complaining about the politics but never doing anything, its more like New Jersey.