Soldiers who should face a firing squad before they die of natural causes

[French jurist]

Indeed DD, Montoneros were no angels neither, I agree.

Those were very troubled times (and let's not forget the implication of the US or even France who sent ex-paratroopers who had operated in Algeria to teach torture technics).

In another country, Stalin has killed millions of people for an ideology.

There are so many ways to apprehend the question. Nevertheless, the emergence of revolutionary organizations had to happen since, in the context of the Cold War, it had been forbidden to the left parties to win democratically an election (Salvador Allende, etc.).

Hopefully those days are over and somehow that explains the actual geopolitical situation in Latin America.
Hopefully too, Latin American countries have shown their maturity like in Chile where a right wing President was elected (democratically this time) after having a Bachelet.

About democracy : now it's the turn of the ME countries to face some dilemmas (and the Occidental world to face big ones as well since it was rather pleasant to have dictators in place... History can be surprising, the so-called "domino effect" envisionned by certain policy makers a few years ago did not work the way it was planned to do so... Doh!).
But that's another vast subject...

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Again, what about Mario Firmenich?

Common crimes are prescriptos (they cannot be prosecuted because there is a time deadline).
Genocide and crimes against humanity never are legally over (prescripción).
Regards

 

[citygirl]

Does anyone recall reading the tragic story in the last year or so about one of those children (now adults) who discovered the truth about his parents having been murdered and him having been raised by a military family? He wound up committing suicide They said he simply couldn't handle what it all meant - the parents he loved having been part of the movement that killed his biological parents. Devastating all the way around.

I think both sides should have to answer to the crimes committed. It was certainly a dark and troubled time in Argentina's history and ignoring it isn't the answer. But IMHO, focusing on only one side isn't the answer either. Put it all out into the light, the murders and rapes and tortures committed by both sides. Condemn those responsible, no matter who they are, and move forward.

 

[jazrgz]

I think both sides should have to answer to the crimes committed. It was certainly a dark and troubled time in Argentina's history and ignoring it isn't the answer. But IMHO, focusing on only one side isn't the answer either. Put it all out into the light, the murders and rapes and tortures committed by both sides. Condemn those responsible, no matter who they are, and move forward.

And put very simply, this is exactly the reason this will never end and be resolved. It is politically correct to only condemn the terrible acts of the military and completaly forget and not even mention the attrocities commited by the guerrilleros as well. This one-sided version of our history makes it impossible for all argentinians to seek justice and closure. There´s a huge amount of argentinians who know what happend back in the 70´s and know that the guerrillas were as vicious as the military (if not more). They also kidnapped, tortured, executed innocent ppl including of course children. The fact that for the past 30 years this part of the story has been erased entirely only focusing on the military and far from terrorists being trialed they are actually considered in some twisted way "heroes" (instead of murderers) makes the chance to bring justice a void quest, it´s simply not valid, it´s a lie and a disgrace to contless victims of the guerrilla !
Goes without saying that im no way supporting amnisty to the military criminals, though i cannot accept the fact that the guerrilla criminals are not only walking freelly amongst us but incidently are all (or most of them) very wealthy ppl enjoying the benefits of capitalism (the same concept they dispised and killed to get rid of)

 

[Bajo_cero2]

And put very simply, this is exactly the reason this will never end and be resolved. It is politically correct to only condemn the terrible acts of the military and completaly forget and not even mention the attrocities commited by the guerrilleros as well. This one-sided version of our history makes it impossible for all argentinians to seek justice and closure.

This is not Nicaragua, there wasn´t a war, it was a genocidal.

Once side, civilians: 30.000 desaparecidos, among the military just a few killed by some extremist guerrilleros.

There weren´t 30.000 guerrilleros, otherwise the history would be different.

The military just killed whoever had long hair, was at university, had any political participation, was unlucky enough to be in some kiddnaped´s telephone diary or the victim was simple real state owner who was kiddnaped and murdered for stealing his house.

It was like, well, seems there are bedbugs at home, so let´s dynamites the neigbor.

Regards

 

[fedecc]

Common crimes are prescriptos (they cannot be prosecuted because there is a time deadline).
Genocide and crimes against humanity never are legally over (prescripción).
Regards

I just dont get how can someone be so outraged about the crimes of the military, but when someone ask for justice for lets say María Cristina Viola, they say (probably with a smirk on the face) "sorry dude, that crime prescribed". I just dont get it.

The least any decent people should say is "you are right man, argentine law sucks, we should change it so we can investigate this cases and bring justice once and for all". Anything else, any sort of burocratic, legal justification is just BS.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

As a criminal lawyer I cannot give you another answer. Common crimes prescribes, simple like that. I was explaining why montoneros cannot be prosecuted again. By the way, they spent in jail many years until Menem´s amnesty. So, they cannot be prosecuted again for the same crimes, it is called double jeopardy.

Videla and others can be prosecuted because they were never prosecuted for the children abducing. On the other hand, amnesty for crimes against humanity is forbidden by international law.

Therefore, there is a difference between a politician who steals the money and one that kidnaps, tortures, rapes, robs, kills and abducts the children of the victims. This type of criminals makes common criminals seem boyscouts.

Regards

 

[fedecc]

You again dodge the issue. Legal stuff aside,only as a far fetched wish, would you like to have the terrorist organizations trialed, yes or no?

If we can now trial the military for crimes against humanity (with a law that didnt exist when the crimes happened), we can certainly do the same with the terrorist. There is enough margin to consider that terrorist organizations can commit human rights abuses and there is also enough evidence that at least the Montoneros had support and assistance from the state in many of their crimes. As a lawyer you probably know that argentina is flexibel like that, it only takes enough political will.

Again, the question is, would you like that to happen? My guess from your posts is no.

And that´s what i dont get.

 

[jazrgz]

So, if you kill, torture, kidnap, rape someone but you are a young long hair college kid with some political participation is ok, it should not really be persecuted.. after all they are only innocent well inteded kids (btw.. college kids ?????? take for example the E.R.P. (ejercito revolucionario del pueblo) i guess they were simply a college futbol team (there were several other "college futbol teams" roaming aroung doing the same type of business (avoing barber shops i guess). C´mon !! these were highly trained guerrillleros !! these fubol teams even had different ranks (military style) and followed direct orders and followed them blindly... (these kinds of teams do not really accept the idea of free will and freedom of though/action).
Now, you either never heard of the ERP (and friends) which automtically disqualifies you of talking about the subject or even worse, you heard about them, you know what they did and how they performed their "duties" but choose to conveniantly leave them out the picture (god knows why) or , you believe they were simply long hair college dudes with some political views (and lots of ammo to go with it)

 

[French jurist]

I just dont get how can someone be so outraged about the crimes of the military, but when someone ask for justice for lets say María Cristina Viola, they say (probably with a smirk on the face) "sorry dude, that crime prescribed". I just dont get it.

The least any decent people should say is "you are right man, argentine law sucks, we should change it so we can investigate this cases and bring justice once and for all". Anything else, any sort of burocratic, legal justification is just BS.

The murderers of María Cristina Viola (at least 5 of them, I sincerely don't know if the commando had more members) got prosecuted, sentenced to perpetuity and were freed at the end of the 1980s so it's not about the question that the crime prescribed.
They got trialed, condemned, spent many years in jail (stayed in jail years after democracy was reinstated) and finally got liberated.

At least they payed for this dramatic event and until the early 2000's the militaries did not for many more victims.

So your facts are a bit biased (nevertheless it can sure be found examples of montoneros who commited a crime and never got prosecuted but in this example, no).

Some atrocities have been commited against the nazis as well, should the perpetrators be judged on the same level as the guys who were running extermination camps?

Again, it's not a question of right vs left/left vs right. Certain acts deserve a special legal treatment. Now it could be discussed if you consider that what did the junta were crimes against humanity or not, but that's a different issue.

Like previously stated, "History is written by the ones who win" also, that's true (otherwise some politics would be prosecuted right now at Den Haag for the 1 million of civilians killed in Iraq. They are not, fair enough, that's part of the game).

The members of the Junta in Argentina, in the end, lost. And as you know "if you're not ready to pay, then don't play". They should now act like big boys and accept the legal decisions from jurisdictions established in a democratic country (whatever defects this country may suffer from). Until now, they just had the headache of escaping such trials, but didn't go to jail, enjoying until the 2000s a more or less normal life (with "arresto domiciliario" for some which can't be compared to jail conditions).

Is this situation fully satisfying ? Certainly not.
Would it have been satisfying to just "let it go" and let those guys live freely until their natural death, with no prosecution ? It would have been worst imho.