Springtime Bolivariana . Students Revolt

Dublin2BuenosAires said:
http://www.lanacion....a-contra-maduro

This young woman? CIA operative?

Fcking pathetic.
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That's indeed pathetic to count the dead.
While last time it was a ratio of 1/10, this time it's about 50/50 (first 4 victims are equally split between chavistas & opposition).

Maduro was elected, that's Democracy.
Things are turning berzerk, not only because of such a "Socialist" dream, but also because a strong part of the opposition (a tiny minority owning a lot of things) does not accept the results of the vote and will try to stir up trouble.

It's clearly a populist regim, deliquency is at record highs indeed, economy is a mess... but the guy was elected (the opposition did not win the municipal elections a few weeks ago = chavistas won on the national level).

Good BBC article about the oppositor who got jailed -> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-26238612

What has done the neoliberalism in favor of Education, Health, etc. when it was in power? Opposition needs to be credible first.
 
frenchie said:
That's indeed pathetic to count the dead.
While last time it was a ratio of 1/10, this time it's about 50/50 (first 4 victims are equally split between chavistas & opposition).

Maduro was elected, that's Democracy.
Things are turning berzerk, not only because of such a "Socialist" dream, but also because a strong part of the opposition (a tiny minority owning a lot of things) does not accept the results of the vote and will try to stir up trouble.

It's clearly a populist regim, deliquency is at record highs indeed, economy is a mess... but the guy was elected (the opposition did not win the municipal elections a few weeks ago = chavistas won on the national level).

Good BBC article about the oppositor who got jailed -> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-26238612

What has done the neoliberalism in favor of Education, Health, etc. when it was in power? Opposition needs to be credible first.
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I think its disgusting that a young woman got shot in the head. I have no idea how many have diedand where they from. Ideological bodycounts dont interest me. As far as I am concerned the politics are academic, it is quite simply not ok to murder citizens because they are protesting.

Police forces which are act within a different legal framework operate within the basis of controlling and containing. This isnt that.

I dont know, perhaps people feel different but minority protests, even those which turn violent do not justify police murder. In the context of northern ireland, in a time when petrol bombs and firearms had been shot at police there has been rightful condemnation (bloddy sunday and other events) when police have murdered citizens. I could give two fcks about minority-majority and media manipulation but i unashamedly have nothing but hate in my heart when the armed forces of a country (or worse state sponsored paramilitaries) murder their citizens. Yes, they should be held to higher standards than the protestors.

This is the people of Venezuela's fight, they have every right to associate and protest, they should be arrested when they break the law. A protest does not equal a coup. All fine and well, but...ahh, too angry. Fck politics and media manipulations, this young wokan was shot in the head and the people have a right to understand why and by whom. Yes, for me it is a more serious crime when a state agent kills a citizen than vice versa IF it goes unpunished because that indicates a state legalisation of murder.
 
the majority of Venezuelans are with the government and military. there are far right fringe elements using terrorism to try and escalate the situation on the ground. I dont see this going anywhere as most Venezuelans have seen Libya, Syria and Ukraine and dont want any part of nato destabilization in their country. The vast majority of Venezuelans voted for the current government in elections recently, as in Ukraine, the losing minority has resorted to nato funded violence in order to install a more favorable corporate puppet in a Russian oriented country. As in Libya, Syria, Ukraine. You must be brain dead to not be able to connect the dots at this point.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-left-has-a-blind-spot-on-venezuela-when-will-it-acknowledge-that-chavezs-socialist-dream-has-turned-into-a-nightmare-9138930.html

despite the plaudits lavished on the country by its Western cheerleaders, many of Venezuela’s neighbours have made a better fist of dragging their poorest citizens out of the gutter than the so-called ‘Bolivarian Revolution’. Between 2007 and 2011 there was a reduction in extreme poverty in Venezuela by some 38 per cent. Impressive no doubt. But the percentage of people who escaped extreme poverty in Brazil during the same period was 44 per cent, in Peru 41 per cent and in Uruguay 63 per cent. None of these countries possess anything like Venezuela’s vast oil wealth, yet all managed to lift their poorest citizens out of penury without the human rights abuses which have characterised the governments of Chavez and Maduro. Boring social democracy may be less romantic, but it has been far more successful at tackling poverty than the Chavez/Maduro model.
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A couple of articles from the PanAmPost:

Interview with a police officer [STRONG LANGUAGE advisory]: http://panampost.com/fergus-hodgson/2014/02/19/venezuelan-police-officer-speaks-out-its-worse-than-you-think/

Story on student protests & deaths: http://panampost.com/marcela-estrada/2014/02/13/venezuela-opposition-rallies-end-in-bloodshed-riots/
 
No offense, but I think some people's estimation of what is going on in Venezuela here is clouded by their ideology. A 22 year old was shot in the head. Because she was a CIA operative? Because she was a terrorist? I don't buy it. It's fine if you are a fan of socialism. But Chavez, Maduro, and his looneys are corrupt power mongers that have brought this country to its knees. There is a reason such a large group of people have fled the country. These are not "rich" people. These are middle class people that are owners of small businesses and everyday people, threatened to have their few physical possessions confiscated because they voted against the ruling party. I have met them in the United States. You can't persecute people just to meet your goals, even if that goal might somehow be noble. Not to mention all the public money these people are stealing, just like the Ks. These are students that are protesting, not some organized militia. This is disgusting that this happened. I can't see how anyone could defend these criminals.
 
Tex said:
No offense, but I think some people's estimation of what is going on in Venezuela here is clouded by their ideology. A 22 year old was shot in the head. Because she was a CIA operative? Because she was a terrorist? I don't buy it. It's fine if you are a fan of socialism. But Chavez, Maduro, and his looneys are corrupt power mongers that have brought this country to its knees. There is a reason such a large group of people have fled the country. These are not "rich" people. These are middle class people that are owners of small businesses and everyday people, threatened to have their few physical possessions confiscated because they voted against the ruling party. I have met them in the United States. You can't persecute people just to meet your goals, even if that goal might somehow be noble. Not to mention all the public money these people are stealing, just like the Ks. These are students that are protesting, not some organized militia. This is disgusting that this happened. I can't see how anyone could defend these criminals.
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Not only a 22 year old beauty queen was shot (and by whom?), but many more. What happens now follows the murders of last year, when the opposition did not accept the results of the election (which was deemed transparent & fair by observators). Nine people were shot last year after those elections, all of them Chavistas (and guess what, the medias didn't tell much about those...).

Until now, 25% of the wounded belong to the military or the police. We are far from a situation where there are the "peaceful protesters" and the "abusive power".

Situation is similar to some extent to what's happening in Ukraine (and personally, I'm in favor of the pro-EU protestors of course... but still): the opposition gets infiltrated by extreme right/fascists elements. Same story in both countries.

Now, it has been determined that the same gun was used to shoot the student (protestor) and a pro-chavista. Seems they were killed by a guy from the secret service. The Head of the secret service has been replaced by Maduro. It could well be that there are attempts to infiltrate security & military forces in order to create chaos.

Let's not forget that the US government congratulated quickly the putschists back in 2002. Situation is much more complicated than it seems.
 
Lets assume for a second that we would have a situation here in Argentina where you cannot buy basic goods like milk, sugar, flour, meat, ... anymore. Furthermore, the crime in BsAs goes up through the roof and the likelihood of getting shot is as high as you get pickpocket now. What would happen on the streets? Would Argentines protest? And if so, would we blame it on the CIA because they are creating unrest to implement a pro US government?
I'm not implying that the US is neutral, nor that they don't support opposition protests through back channels in Venezuela. However, just labeling the situation as an attempt to induce chaos in order to putsch the government is very dangerous and ignorant to the people that use their democratic rights to protest peacefully.
 
thorsten said:
Lets assume for a second that we would have a situation here in Argentina where you cannot buy basic goods like milk, sugar, flour, meat, ... anymore. Furthermore, the crime in BsAs goes up through the roof and the likelihood of getting shot is as high as you get pickpocket now. What would happen on the streets? Would Argentines protest? And if so, would we blame it on the CIA because they are creating unrest to implement a pro US government?
I'm not implying that the US is neutral, nor that they don't support opposition protests through back channels in Venezuela. However, just labeling the situation as an attempt to induce chaos in order to putsch the government is very dangerous and ignorant to the people that use their democratic rights to protest peacefully.
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Interesting point, but that illustrates too the complexity of the situation.
When there was a flour shortage here, was it 100% the responsibility of the govt or was it to some extent a provoked shortage by some businesses in order to create chaos?

Again, Chavism is not my really my political dream (I'm rather conservative for certain things and liberal for others), the situation in Venezuela is a chaos, insecurity is incredibly high, but things are much more complex than what it seems.

I don't believe much the medias (see what a MIT team concluded about the chemical attacks in Syria -> we were on the brink of a global war based on lies... again) but I believe there are way too many golpistas among the opposition. The wealth concentration in Venezuela is also the problem: the first generations of migrants to the US would start their new lives on a more equally basis than in many LatAm countries where the first ones to arrive grabbed it all.
 
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