Well So Much For The China Deal

[garryl]

I think that is a very misguided reading of the situation. Chile acquired the F-16s (mostly used from the Netherlands) and the AWACS almost 15 years ago. Brazil is acquiring the JAS-39 now, and the acquisition is completely unrelated to the Chilean one, which happened 15 years ago. The simple fact is that the fighter jets of the Brazilian Air Force are simple getting too old and too expensive to maintain. Brazil has absolutely no imaginable scenario in which it would be confronting Chile militarily. The relations between the two countries is excellent and have been historically, since both used to share a common enemy (Argentina). Also, there are no shared borders, and Chile frequently buys Brazilian made military hardware. Chile was never the driver of Brazilian military acquisitions. Extremely old hardware and uncertainties about what will happen in Venezuela are.

Well, that's what Argentina military people told China (which is published in Chinese defense magazine), neighbors have F-16 and JAS-39, and they have nothing, not that there will be a war between any of the 3 countries. Among the 3, Argentina has more reasons to have some military upgrade. The deal involves fighter planes, a small destroyer like ship, and armored personnel carriers, for AR air force, navy and army. Not sure how Argentina is going to pay for this, could be a loan from the Chinese government. They are trying to trying to fund the Mexico high speed rails with 3 billions, but Mexico killed the deal.

 

[camberiu]

Well, that's what Argentina military people told China (which is published in Chinese defense magazine), neighbors have F-16 and JAS-39, and they have nothing, not that there will be a war between any of the 3 countries. Among the 3, Argentina has more reasons to have some military upgrade. The deal involves fighter planes, a small destroyer like ship, and armored personnel carriers, for AR air force, navy and army. Not sure how Argentina is going to pay for this, could be a loan from the Chinese government. They are trying to trying to fund the Mexico high speed rails with 3 billions, but Mexico killed the deal.

Well, the Chinese magazine is misreading most of the situation in the South Cone. Chile has a modern air force because of tension with Peru, past tensions with Argentina and the fact that by their constitution, a percentage of the copper revenue must be spent on defense.

Brazil is modernizing its air force because the Mirage 2000 and the Northrop F-5 Tiger IIs, which made up the backbone of the combat aviation are simply too old and expensive to maintain. Of all the possible planes Brazil could have bought (F-18, Rafale and JAS-39 Gripen), Brazil opted for the least expensive one. And the old fighters will not be replaced by the new ones at a 1:1 ratio. The Brazilian air force will actually shrink in numbers with the acquisition of the JAS-39. Also, another significant driver is the fact that Venezuela has armed itself with an incredibly powerful air force and the political future of that country is extremely uncertain, which makes the Brazilian military nervous.

But yes, I think the Argentine military's primary motivator in this acquisition is status. The planes currently available for the Argentine combat aviation are completely obsolete, well past retirement age, and in the case of a conflict, would be little more than flying targets. Argentina's top frontline fighter is the MIRAGE III, a plane from the 1950s that has no sensors or modern weaponry. Also, they are so old that flying them is actually extremely risky for the pilots. But once they are retired, Argentina will have an air force that is equivalent to that of Bolivia and Paraguay. It must be really painful in terms of pride if you consider that this was once a nation that had an air force that outclassed by a wide margin, all of the other South American air forces COMBINED.

Since the Chinese are accepting soy as payment, the FC-17 would address the military's desperate need to appear somewhat relevant in the region. It is not a great plane, but at least would maintain Argentina's status as a country that has super-sonic planes on its air force.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Well, the Chinese magazine is misreading most of the situation in the South Cone. Chile has a modern air force because of tension with Peru, past tensions with Argentina and the fact that by their constitution, a percentage of the copper revenue must be spent on defense.

Brazil is modernizing its air force because the Mirage 2000 and the Northrop F-5 Tiger IIs, which made up the backbone of the combat aviation are simply too old and expensive to maintain. Of all the possible planes Brazil could have bought (F-18, Rafale and JAS-39 Gripen), Brazil opted for the least expensive one. And the old fighters will not be replaced by the new ones one a 1:1 ratio. The Brazilian air force will actually shrink in numbers with the acquisition of the JAS-39. Also, another significant driver is the fact that Venezuela has armed itself with an incredibly powerful air force and the political future of that is extremely uncertain, which makes the Brazilian military nervous.

But yes, I think the Argentine military's primary motivator in this acquisition is status. The planes currently available for the Argentine combat aviation are completely obsolete, well past retirement age, and in the case of a conflict, would be little more than flying targets. Argentina's top frontline fighter is the MIRAGE III, a plane from the 1950s that has no sensors or modern weaponry. Also, they are so old that flying them is actually extremely risky for the pilots. But once they are retired, Argentina will have an air force that is equivalent to that of Bolivia and Paraguay. It must be really painful in terms of pride if you consider that this was once a nation that had an air force that outclassed by a wide margin, all of the other South American air forces COMBINED.

Since the Chinese are accepting soy as payment, the FC-17 would address the military's desperate need to appear somewhat relevant in the region. It is not a great plane, but at least would maintain Argentina's status as a country that has super-sonic planes on its air force.

Priorities, please! If Argentina acquires these planes, will there still be enough liquidity to subsidize Soccer for Everybody?

 

[rrptownley]

I was watching Last Week Tonight and John Oliver's comments on CFK's China tweet made me guffaw:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnPWt-9zqLE[/media]

 

[Rich One]

The China deal is a Win-Loss type proposition. Argentina will receive about $31 billion dollars in credits payable in 20 years? by then the K's will be history. At that point Argentina can default and offer 35 cents on the dollar to China Good deal.

 

[garryl]

The China deal is a Win-Loss type proposition. Argentina will receive about $31 billion dollars in credits payable in 20 years? by then the K's will be history. At that point Argentina can default and offer 35 cents on the dollar to China Good deal.

I am not sure if Argentina ever has a plan to pay it back. The cooks in the Chinese government want to push for this deal. On the paper, it's a loan to another government who has strategic relationship, and Chinese can export trains and weaponry and high tech. But under the table, these cooks cash in the state money into their overseas bank account during the process like that. They bribed Mexican government top guys on the high speed rails project for 3 billion loan to Mexico, and they(Mexicans) got caught by media, they have to delay and re-evaluate the bidding process. Can you imagine that, I have to bribe you to loan you 3 billion dollars ? All because Chinese people or congress have no saying to these projects.

 

[dennisr]

Default on loan from China. You believe these people to be idiots? Insurance required at a rate of +7% on pricipal and interest.

http://factcheckargentina.org/plump-skinny-argentina-china-accord/

 

[garryl]

Default on loan from China. You believe these people to be idiots? Insurance required at a rate of +7% on pricipal and interest.

http://factcheckarge...a-china-accord/

lenders are many small Chinese banks, insured is SinoSure, also a Chinese company, they had the same insurance with Venezuela, and they already defaulted on their loan, and China gave them more loans. This is a great deal for Argentina.

 

[dennisr]

lenders are many small Chinese banks, insured is SinoSure, also a Chinese company, they had the same insurance with Venezuela, and they already defaulted on their loan, and China gave them more loans. This is a great deal for Argentina.

Good deal? AR shall be required to pay an insurance premium on loan money AR has not received: incremental payments. Do not think your position is as good as you believe.

Good Luck

 

[camberiu]

Not sure if it is a great deal to either Argentina or the Chinese tax payer. The big winner here are the Chinese oligarchs who are selling to Argentina and being paid on the spot by the Chinese government, while the Chinese tax payer is on the hook if Argentina defaults. Argentina will make installment payments for these overpriced items with its soy, until it defaults. Cristina wins politically. The Chinese oligarchs win their money. Everybody else loses.