What happens to a permanent residency when you leave for good?

sergio

Registered
You need to pay a lot of attention before hiring a lawyer. Personally, I paid 700 dollars to a lawyer who claimed to know about citizenship matter. I naively believed her bla bla especially that I am married to an Argentine citizen and I already have permanent residence, so my case is supposed to be as easy as pie. It turned out she was a liar and extremely ignorant. She caused unnecessary and significant delays in the process until I found out about that when one day I sent an email to the juzgado to ask about my expediente and the reply was that it's pending as the 'competent' lawyer didn't submit some documents for months. I immediately dispensed with the swindler's services and I did all the process my self.
That's why I said you need a competent specialist (was she even an immigration lawyer?) recommended by someone you know and trust who is knowledgeable. And getting an answer to a simple question such as whether you have to return within two years or face losing your DNI should NOT cost $700 USD. In fact, as a courtesy an honest lawyer is not likely to even charge for the answer.
 

dsp27

Registered
You should return once every 2 years at a minimum. However, the loss of permanent residence is not automatic. If Migraciones or the official at the airport notices that you have been out for more than 2 years then you may be in trouble. But they don't always do. If you know you will not be able to return within 2 years reach out the the nearest embassy they should be able to help and vouch for you in some cases, maybe even give you a letter supporting your case if you have a valid reason for not being back, like a health condition, work, covid, etc. etc.
 

Alby

Registered
Isn't it computerized? Don't they just run a program every night that updates and drops people off (not only the permanent residents that the systems sees today passed the two-year mark, but also the temporary residents who have gone beyond their 183 days outside the country, and the tourists who have gone over their 90 days)? I ask because at one time I was on a tourist visa, booked the boat to Montevideo for the 90th day, but miscalculated by a couple of hours (due to the hour of my arrival 90-days earlier at Ezeiza) and the system told the official I was over the 90th day and there was nothing he could do; the system had thrown me into irregular status (which could only be corrected by a mad rush to another building to get the 90-day extension authorized, which I somehow managed to accomplish and still make the boat--which of course I now no longer needed to take, having just fixed the problem the other way).
 

Bajo_cero2

Registered
Isn't it computerized? Don't they just run a program every night that updates and drops people off (not only the permanent residents that the systems sees today passed the two-year mark, but also the temporary residents who have gone beyond their 183 days outside the country, and the tourists who have gone over their 90 days)? I ask because at one time I was on a tourist visa, booked the boat to Montevideo for the 90th day, but miscalculated by a couple of hours (due to the hour of my arrival 90-days earlier at Ezeiza) and the system told the official I was over the 90th day and there was nothing he could do; the system had thrown me into irregular status (which could only be corrected by a mad rush to another building to get the 90-day extension authorized, which I somehow managed to accomplish and still make the boat--which of course I now no longer needed to take, having just fixed the problem the other way).
It is not, this is what they see:
1627532235015.png
They cannot do that because art. 14 of the AR Constitution entitles you to star and to re enter.
 

Bajo_cero2

Registered
That's why I said you need a competent specialist (was she even an immigration lawyer?) recommended by someone you know and trust who is knowledgeable. And getting an answer to a simple question such as whether you have to return within two years or face losing your DNI should NOT cost $700 USD. In fact, as a courtesy an honest lawyer is not likely to even charge for the answer.
What you are not understanding is Argentina is a Federal country.
It not only means that we have a dual system between the provinces and the Central government, it also means that we have a parallel system between national law and Internacional private law that is enforceable straight.
So, we have a clear conflict of law between the AR Constitution, the inmmigration law that is unconstitutional and citizenship law that is a subject of International Private law.
This means that there are as many answers as lawyers and every professional reply according to his experience, skills and possibilities.
For example, the SC says once you become an inhabitant, there is no clause at the AR Constitution that cancels its because the Supreme Courts enforces International Private Law (roman law of manumission) that says "freedom cannot be granted by a lapsus of time, once you are manumitted, this is for eternity". Of course you cannot say that to an agent of immigration with high school completed, but this is something a lawyer use before an habeas corpus judge to enforce your right to re-entry in advance.
 

cuando_volverá

Registered
You should return once every 2 years at a minimum. However, the loss of permanent residence is not automatic. If Migraciones or the official at the airport notices that you have been out for more than 2 years then you may be in trouble. But they don't always do. If you know you will not be able to return within 2 years reach out the the nearest embassy they should be able to help and vouch for you in some cases, maybe even give you a letter supporting your case if you have a valid reason for not being back, like a health condition, work, covid, etc. etc.
That sounds like good advice pre-2020. It's not really feasible to return to Argentina right now and hasn't been for a long time. In fact, it's barely even possible. As with all things in Argentina, there is the law and application of the law.
 

sergio

Registered
What you are not understanding is Argentina is a Federal country.
It not only means that we have a dual system between the provinces and the Central government, it also means that we have a parallel system between national law and Internacional private law that is enforceable straight.
So, we have a clear conflict of law between the AR Constitution, the inmmigration law that is unconstitutional and citizenship law that is a subject of International Private law.
This means that there are as many answers as lawyers and every professional reply according to his experience, skills and possibilities.
For example, the SC says once you become an inhabitant, there is no clause at the AR Constitution that cancels its because the Supreme Courts enforces International Private Law (roman law of manumission) that says "freedom cannot be granted by a lapsus of time, once you are manumitted, this is for eternity". Of course you cannot say that to an agent of immigration with high school completed, but this is something a lawyer use before an habeas corpus judge to enforce your right to re-entry in advance.
THUS it is as I said, ambiguous. The safest course would be to try to be present once every two years. That way there wouldn't be any cause for a dispute.
 

dsp27

Registered
Isn't it computerized? Don't they just run a program every night that updates and drops people off (not only the permanent residents that the systems sees today passed the two-year mark, but also the temporary residents who have gone beyond their 183 days outside the country, and the tourists who have gone over their 90 days)? I ask because at one time I was on a tourist visa, booked the boat to Montevideo for the 90th day, but miscalculated by a couple of hours (due to the hour of my arrival 90-days earlier at Ezeiza) and the system told the official I was over the 90th day and there was nothing he could do; the system had thrown me into irregular status (which could only be corrected by a mad rush to another building to get the 90-day extension authorized, which I somehow managed to accomplish and still make the boat--which of course I now no longer needed to take, having just fixed the problem the other way).
Yes and no. The officials at the airport generally can easily see recent entry and exits on the same document/passport. But enter on a DNI and exit with a passport and it becomes more complicated. Or even if you change you passport number when getting a new passport. Again, the system DOES connect the entries and exits by using NAME, date of birth etc. (it does not rely only on the dni/passport number) but it's not really automatic. If you request your "movimiento migratorio" from DNM it will capture ALL entries and exits with different documents but based on my experience immigration officials at the border cannot see all the information if it's an old entry/exit or different travel docs have been used for entry/exit. So one "strategy" to maybe avoid being caught is if you left Argentina with your passport, is to re-enter via a neighboring country like Brazil or Chile with the DNI. That would reduce the chance of getting caught. This is just my guess....
 

Alby

Registered
Yes and no.
I still don't really understand. A permanent resident who has stayed overseas too long can present at Ezeiza with both their DNI and a passport. Whichever they present in the first instance, the border official may or may not notice that the system has booted this person off their permanent residency. If the official does notice, the person will still enter but as a 90-day tourist, using their passport. (Does the official confiscate the DNI I wonder?) If the official doesn't notice, then the person enters on their DNI, but surely the official's error doesn't restore the person's permanent residency; they have lost their permanent residency and will run into problems later?
 

dsp27

Registered
I still don't really understand. A permanent resident who has stayed overseas too long can present at Ezeiza with both their DNI and a passport. Whichever they present in the first instance, the border official may or may not notice that the system has booted this person off their permanent residency. If the official does notice, the person will still enter but as a 90-day tourist, using their passport. (Does the official confiscate the DNI I wonder?) If the official doesn't notice, then the person enters on their DNI, but surely the official's error doesn't restore the person's permanent residency; they have lost their permanent residency and will run into problems later?
You only use the DNI to enter or exit on a flight to a neighboring or Mercosur country. For example Brazil or Chile.
I am saying that the process is not automatic. It's not automatic for permanent resident of the US with a green card either. There are always exceptions made and special circumstances are considered etc, especially if the resident notifies the authorities they won't able to return for some time for a specific reason. Loss of residency is a complex legal issue not as simple as "oh you were out for x number of days, you are out!".
In any case, if you have a problem at the border it would likely involve escalating the case to a supervisor, those officials in the booths rarely have the final say in complex cases like these.
So my advice.If you know you will not be able to return within 2 years seek an advice from the AR embassy in your jurisdiction. They can issue you a supporting letter. Check the status of your expediente for residency on the migraciones website to see if it's still showing up and there are any annotations. If you travel after 2 years and there are no issues at the border and you are admitted you will likely be fine. You can always request "a vista" of your immigrations record directly from DNM but you have to go in person. Again, I am sure they check periodically who has abandoned their residence but it's not something that is done automatically by the system, and having been outside for slightly over 2 years would often not catch anyones attention...YMMV.
 
Top