Which Has The Better Economy: Argentina Or Chile?

[Ceviche]

Perhaps the dozens of experts that ranked Chile above Arg, did not see what you DID....! Or are not as qualified to judge....!!

Isn't that what life is all about. after all, we are what we are basis our personal life experiences which are unique for each of us!

 

[Matiasba]

Villas have grown significantly over the past 10 years. I understand a lot of this may be due to immigration, but I would argue most is due to second generation, expansion of families & new additions (ie from middle, lower middle class). Either way, any immigrants living in villas are now part of Argentina and hence form part of the country and statistics.

I'd be interested to know where that 70% came from as well, do you have a source?

The growth of villas and the "emergencia habitacional" the country has is a terrible terrible problem, with no easy or direct solution in the short term. the expansion of villas, constructing other floor or a spare room to rent or something like that is in my opinion a symptom of economic wealth. That was very common in the last 10 years, humble houses that precariously built a room in thier house and rent it. In Villa 31, the most famous and better placed, rooms go up to 1000 pesos per month.
People who used to live in villas a lot ago they dont do anymore, thats why the majority of its populations are immigrants, because they have recently arrived, because people who came before than them dont live in the villa anymore, if not there would be more argentine population in villas, since they come here and have kids, etc.

About the source I dont remember, maybe I took it from a paper I wrote during my carrer or some research I did on the web. I can be wrong, but not for a big margin, the great majority of population living in villas are immigrants and I would add that the other 30% might be immigrants sons.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

What actually is the argument here? That if we applied Chilean policies to Argentina everything would change, roses would grow at the side of general paz and the villas would turn into supermarkets and out of town business parks?

What would Argentina do with it's immigrant population? Would they suddenly be educated and trained or would they be even more likely to be cast aside. Social mobility is a worthless statistic without taking into consideration whether it applies to actually living in real poverty and in excusion up into a more acceptable standard of living. Lifting that large group into the economy and into acceptable living standards won't happen by charging them to go to college or by underinvesting in infrastructure and schools.

Chile is not Argentina, they have a border in common, structurally that is about it. Chile has more in common with Ireland in that respect, it is small open economy, applying economic policies which are appropriate for a smaller country with smaller infrastructure and social welfare needs.

 

[Matiasba]

I find this one MUCH more interesting:

"Chile also stood at the forefront of countries in the region for social mobility, showing 60 percent of the population to have improved their economic situation while 40 percent maintained it between 1992 and 2009. Costa Rica, Brazil and Colombia followed Chile’s lead with similar percentages of upward mobility."

That is between 1992-2009. In the period the situation of 60% of the population improved. The highest in the continent. And no one when down, unlike another country I know of. Argentina does not appear at all between the top 4.

Argentina went down?? :huh:
are you referring to 2001?
One good thing about chile is that they have, unlike Argentina, state policies, long term policies, no matter the ideological orientation of the government. Argentina is a mess, and when a new government comes, spend a lot of time and resources trying to erase what the last government did. I think this statistics show this quite well.


Still, your article showed as well my point of Arg & Uru having the strongest middle class of the region.

 

[trennod]

What actually is the argument here? That if we applied Chilean policies to Argentina everything would change, roses would grow at the side of general paz and the villas would turn into supermarkets and out of town business parks?

What would Argentina do with it's immigrant population? Would they suddenly be educated and trained or would they be even more likely to be cast aside. Social mobility is a worthless statistic without taking into consideration whether it applies to actually living in real poverty and in excusion up into a more acceptable standard of living. Lifting that large group into the economy and into acceptable living standards won't happen by charging them to go to college or by underinvesting in infrastructure and schools.

Chile is not Argentina, they have a border in common, structurally that is about it. Chile has more in common with Ireland in that respect, it is small open economy, applying economic policies which are appropriate for a smaller country with smaller infrastructure and social welfare needs.

I would argue if Argentina had many of Chiles qualities (economically & politically), yes it would be better. We are talking about a country (Argentina) with significantly more resources per capita and a generally well-educated population. The current system is obviously not working here, or is it? All I have seen in the last couple of years is more difficulties for the middle class (inflation, currency controls, lack of jobs & investment), increasing crime etc. And it doesn't seem to be getting much better for the poor either.

Chile more in common than Ireland? Economic policies yes, but in terms of history, resources, education systems - I doubt it.

 

[germano]

Interesting what it says in the second paragraph:


Quote.

"About 42 percent of Chile’s population was said to be part of the middle class ranking it third in the region after Uruguay and Argentina."

Chile leads continent in social mobility, World Bank says

It is indeed a very interesting link. If you dig deeper and click on the link in the article you get to the original source - the Worldbank report: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/LACEXT/Resources/English_Report_midclass.pdf

• Page 9, figure 0.7 shows income inequality was indeed greater in Chile than in Argentina (as of 2012)
• Page 19, figure 1.1 shows that the per capita GDP growth was higher in Argentina than in Chile percentage wise (as of 2009)
• Page 138, figure 5.2 shows middle class of Argentina is larger (%) than in Chile (as of 2009)
• Page 138, figure 5.2 also shows class of the poor in Argentina is larger (%) than in Chile (as of 2009)
• Page 139, figure 5.4 shows middle class of Argentina is growing faster (%) than Chile's (as of 2010)

A closer look shows that the differences are not huge (what matiasba wrote earlier this thread).

 

[germano]

Not interested in statistics from early 2000's that show a growing middle class in Argentina because your coming off a ridiculously low base being 2001.
The stats from Chile have already been shown by camberiu, I don't really think they need repeating?

The link was published while I was writing the response ... took a closer l the report after that. Very interesting.

 

[camberiu]

I think the original question was who had the better economy, Argentina or Chile? Based on the data presented and based on changes over the past 20 years, as described by the World Bank, who would you say has a better economy?

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

I would argue if Argentina had many of Chiles qualities (economically & politically), yes it would be better. We are talking about a country (Argentina) with significantly more resources per capita and a generally well-educated population. The current system is obviously not working here, or is it? All I have seen in the last couple of years is more difficulties for the middle class (inflation, currency controls, lack of jobs & investment), increasing crime etc. And it doesn't seem to be getting much better for the poor either.

Obviously it is not working, and quite obviously the current govt are on their way out. However, I cannot understand how decreasing investment in infrastructure (sorely needs to be upgraded), decreasing education investment and handing control to various monopolies would benefit the greater majority of people. That right wing hands off approach is going to benefit no one in a villa is it?

The different sizes of population and the far greater numbers on the ground living in poverty in Argentina mean that a Chilean style corporate wet dream would not help Argentina, for me it is the other end of the scale to protectionism. Frying pan to fire, if you think the riots are serious in Santiago now, wait until you see how they would be in Argentina if you closed off education to a greater % of the population by insisting that people who have no money pay for it. A personal debt cycle for students to pay for this would not help the country.

Politics should be pragmatic, just because it is ideologically appealing or that it might help your current employers and by extension you, does not mean it will be a longer term sustainable policy for Argentina.

Country needs liberalised trade policies to stimulate ecomony whilst maintaining the environment, adequate financial and corporate regulation, increased security, housing programs and wide scale infrastructure programs and a massive drive to criminalise and prosecute non payment of taxes (and also some serious traffic regulation!).

Swinging too far right won't help Argentina meet these challenges, it would help the country ignore the growing immigrant population but it would not address the long term infrastructure issues.

 

[germano]

I think the original question was who had the better economy, Argentina or Chile? Based on the data presented and based on changes over the past 20 years, as described by the World Bank, who would you say has a better economy?

Good point the discussion moved away from the original topic to middle class size, growth etc. - though that seems to be answered in part by the article/Worldbank report you provided - it does not answer the original question.