With Less Than 2 Weeks Until The Elections ...

[Matiasba]

And yes I dont live in Argentina any more, but since this year. And I go there twice a year, and not for one week but months. And I have family there. And I lived there for 36 years, many more than 9

 

[ElQueso]

There is discontent, Counting Matias. If there wasn't why wouldn't everyone be 100% behind Cristina and her policies? Why wouldn't Zannini be running for president himself with another of Crisitna's lapdogs as vice president instead of running as vice president with a compromise candidate for president? That's just a minor indication, for starters.

Do you realize that the government now employs about 10% of the population? OMFG! There's 10% right there that are going to be perfectly happy with things the way they are - they sure ain't discontented. And BTW - that was 10% of the total population. If you take the voting population (I'd say adult population, but since Cristina lets impressionable kids vote, I can't quite say that), it must be a much greater number (15-18% maybe?) because I know there are a lot of children in Argentina (and I'm not counting teenagers as children, who can vote as of 16, por dios). And how many of those people interact with others outside the government and make them happy via sweetheart deals and such?

Out of those that are left how many work for unions? Trucker drivers, taxis, waiters, train conductors, and so on. They're happy because they have the power to force the government to force the employers to pay them more, raises inline with the inflation rate (which INDEC still lies about through its teeth - they just couldn't keep up the pretense it was single digits any more when those same teenagers who can vote could actually tell it was higher than that, much less people who could think and do math). Yeah, I'd say the union workers are pretty happy about things. I have no idea what the percentage of people in Argentina belong to a worthwhile union who can extort the government to raise salaries while everyone who isn't a government worker or a union worker doesn't have the same force.

Notice I didn't include teachers in the small list of unions - they get paid squat compared to bus drivers, for crying out loud! But that seems OK because I don't see a lot of concern from Arrgeninos about the level of education in this country, given what I've seen with three young ladies in school here (and how many kids do you have to raise Counting Matias? Oh yeah, moot question anyway because you don't even live here!).

And how many store owners do you talk to? I can guarantee you that there are a lot of these people that are freaked out by governmental policies.

And poor people? I mean, really poor people. You know, I know a number of people who barely make 8K pesos a month. Who used to be quite taken with Cristina as they received their subsidies for babies, for services, etc. Now, about 1/4 (estimating, I didn't take a poll) of those who I know who used to be happy with Cristina are convinced she's a crook and don't have their best interests at heart. Imagine that. Imagine what that will look like before too long when it's a majority of poor people who are seeing through the smoke and mirrors.

Just because there are not riots in the streets doesn't mean that there is no discontent. Argentina has done a wonderful job over the decades of convincing a very large number of people that 1) they don't live such crappy lives, 2) that whatever faults there are will be taken care of by the fearless leaders who know better than anyone else how to cure all ills and as a result 3) people here tend to accept what they are sure that they cannot change. Argentines as a majority are defeated and are waiting for the Second Coming (either JC or Peron reborn) to make things "right".

When people speak of the middle class here, I think of what it used to mean to me to be middle class in the States. When I was 26 years old I bought my first house. Know what I did for a living? I drove a truck for a precast concrete company. Shortly after I bought the house, I became an apprentice structural draftsman, working for the same company I had driven the truck for. It made it easier to pay for the house, that's for sure, but I could have continued that on my truck driver's salary. The house was 1450 square feet. That's 135 square meters. It was in a nice lower middle class neighborhood which had one public pool to share among its inhabitants and no one feared people coming by at night to rob them, more than anyone else in decent neighborhoods in the States fear such a thing more than a possibility.

Considering that a lot of middle class houses I saw in the suburbs are somewhere between 70-100 square meters, that's not saying much. And how many people doing a menial job (i.e., not being paid union wages - Texas is a right to work state and I didn't work for a union as a gofer truck driver) in their mid-20s here can afford to buy something like that outside the city? And the houses that I see here are mostly poor construction, tiny yards and are little more than cramped single-dwelling apartments, among the middle class.

Why accept so little? I think it would be great if poor people lived in an apartment like mine and I lived in a nice house like I used to have in Houston. Poor, after all, is a relative term. To me, it's a symptom that people here "accept" whatever is thrown at them until it gets way, way too heavy. Discontent? Hah. I'd like to know how many people knowing the real difference that there could be would still be "content".

So for you (and, I'm presuming the majority of Argentina), democracy is a way to make the majority of the people happy? What if it's a slim majority of 50.1%? Is that OK with you if the rest of the country bleeds for that majority? That's a problem right there with democracy, something that I see happening in the US. But here, where there are no real controls on, nor understanding of, "democracy", yeah, sure it's OK if just half of the country is better off than the other half. After all, it's a bare majority, so it's all cool, right?

Counting Matias, I really don't understand why you continue to rebut things with us. If you think we're all wrong, are you arguing the government's (and your) position because you think you'll change our minds? Considering that you never give any reasonable facts to back up your position, aside from INDEC and other governmental agencies and from a couple of things outside of INDEC that are almost always taken out of context or don't mean what you put forth that they mean. If you think we are so wrong, why do you continue to beat your head against our collective wall? Are you worried about our foreign souls or something? We're such a small, insignificant population, the majority of which can't even vote. We don't mean anything to anyone here except ourselves. Well, and those who are indeed discontented, realize it, and listen to us. But that's a pretty small number as well.

 

[ElQueso]

And yes I dont live in Argentina any more, but since this year. And I go there twice a year, and not for one week but months. And I have family there. And I lived there for 36 years, many more than 9

Have you ever heard the phrase "can't see the forest for the trees"? Does it ever occur to you that people who come from the outside, who have lived here long enough to understand something of what goes on in the country, may actually be able to see things someone who has been here all their lives can't see because of a difference in perspective and a lack of indoctrination that people who have lived here have?

It occurred to me when I began traveling outside of the US some 20+ years ago. It's amazing what happens to the world when you not only travel but also listen to what others have to say, people who have a perspective different than your own. But you have to be willing to question some of your most profound beliefs.

BTW - 10 years ago (a little before I got here, but the same time as when things were going pretty well here, relatively speaking) you were about the same age as I was when I bought my first house. I'd already been living on my own for almost 8 years before that (I left the house when I was 18 to go to school, which I paid for myself, both room and lodging and school, by working my ass off at two different part time jobs).

Did you buy your own place, with the fruits of your own work, with no help from your folks? Or were you like a large number of young people here that I know and know of - still living with your folks? How many kids do you have now? How many children have you had to provide food, clothing, shelter, support and love for? By the time I was your age I already had had two kids and a third would be another year or two in the future. I ask all this because 1) it's even easier to deal with crappy economic policies and a lack of opportunities in general when you have no kids, may be single, and may have lived with you parents, or with their support, well past the very early 20s and 2) after living here for nearly a decade and for 8 of those years having young ones in school here and having raised three of my own previously in the States, I feel I have a pretty good handle on what it takes to raise kids here, and raise kids in the States and what many of the pitfalls are in both countries.

Does it ever occur to you that even though I may have lived here only about 1/4 of the time you have as a citizen, that maybe my life experience (and that of others on here as well) may have a lot of validity even if we hadn't lived our whole lives here?

And you know who I drew a lot of my life's values from, built on top of those my parents gave me to begin with? Immigrants. Hard-working immigrants who came to the US and worked their asses off to provide a better life for themselves and their kids. Those are the people I worked with more than any other group for my first ten years in the work force. They had a lot to teach me even if they didn't think of it like that.

I could go on, but I have work to do and my fingers are tired. As usual, I'm getting nowhere with you because even if you examine your beliefs, you fail to see that those beliefs are benefiting no one but yourself and other cronies who benefit under a system dependent on cronyism. You who lived here for 36 years cannot have known the number of people who are unhappy and discontent that I have in my short 9+ years here or you would not think everything is good and you aren't seeing that things are getting worse because you have blinders pointed at the Casa Rosada and the Reina that lives there.

 

[Matiasba]

lets see:

1) 100% you can never have. As I said, there are opposed interests, and you always, that is every government ever existed in earth, govern for some people and is detrimental to other. Thats the tragedy: you can never have the 100% content, you always have to damage one part of the society. This said, 60% of positive image is quite a lot, concerning world wide politicians images. I atribute that 40% to the power the right has, the concentrated money and their power of convincement. And of course, lots of "normal citizens" who do not share Populismo/autoritarismo/nacionalismo or whatever characteristic Cristina has.

2) About the enormous quantity of people employed by this government. I guess we wont agree here, I like big states, states that dominate lots of areas of the society, market regulations, intervention, intervention, intervention. I dont believe in markets, I think thats the main problems of our societies, and States are made to solve or "correct" its faults. So, if we have, like we did, a pro free market government with 25% unemployment during 1o years, and on the other hand you have a 6% unemployment for 10 years, even if they are ñoquis, or they have planes, or they are pure nepotism, it is always better to have them inside the formal economy. I dont know the number, the exact number of how many they are, I know that the State have created lots of new jobs, from policemen to teachers, from forest rangers to intelligence agents. Millions and millions. Public employment. Its not La Campora and militantes only, its a wide spectrum, they are millions, in every branch of the economy. I d choose this current situation that the 25%-small efficient State every day. And efficient is what they claimed.

3) Unions are, and were, very strong during the Kirchnerismo. They had to be due inflation, and they were tutoring by the Ks, the paritarias is something the Ks brought back and what Macri and his people dismiss. The real salary in Argentina is one of the best in the region, considering inflation. Our informal job is like 25-30%, so the other 70% works en blanco. Again, one of the best in the region.

4) About education. This was one of the great cuts the last free market government we had did. The total spend was dramatically cutted to have a more efficient state. They, and De la Rua, and Duhalde, invested 2% of GDP to education. This government raised that number to 6.5%, not only that, they multiplied the GDP per two (!) for the ones who say the economy under the Ks is all wrong. Remember carpa docente? why they, the teachers, who have indeed a lot of power (strikes, etc) do not protest anymore? yes there are some isolated episodes during these 12 years, but classes went on normally I would say. That wasnt the case of the last governments.

5) I m not sure of the "people here tend to accept". People made a huge change in 2001, with the crisis, provoking a president resignation, it is a very politicized society I would say, thats why you always have piquetes, marchas, manifestaciones. Always. Our national sport is to complain. Not to accept.

6) About housing. Argentina has a huge problem of housing. Google emergencia habitacional. Thats why we have growing villas, thats why we have millions and millions living in very precarious houses. Although a very big percent of that people are recently arrived immigrants. In fact, the social movility makes them improve and then move forward from the villa. In general, of course you will find people who lived in villas for ages. This housing problem is getting worse and worse as time goes by. It has to do with immigration as I said, but its 100% risponsability of the State to provide houses to these people (not in a socialist way but because housing is in fact a Human Right that Argentine constitution signed and ratified)

7) As I said, sadly democracy is the tyranny of the majority. You cant have all happy, you have to sacrifice a portion of the society. If so, which one would you chose, the majority or the minority? I ask, because we all know that in fact there is aminority ruling the world, and in most countries, the vote is just one variable of many, and the minorities can not do anything to change. Peronism is exactly that, recognition and rights to the majority. i wish this could be a conquest, like something the lower classes gained, either with strikes, fighting etc, but its not from the bottom to the top, its from the state to the bottom, thats why I say its demagogia, but still, you have the rights, and the unions, you have paid vacations, aguinaldo, health, etc, etc, etc. Its something peronism gave to the people, and they had to fight with a lot of people to obtain that.

8) I like reading this forum, I dont think you, the people that comment, are always wrong, I read opinions, and yes, the most of the time I just dont agree, but still, there are interesting points of view. And I also like writing posts like this one, it helps practice my english. This could be a detail, but its crucial to me, to read something in english almost every day, to write, etc.

 

[Matiasba]

I could go on, but I have work to do and my fingers are tired. As usual, I'm getting nowhere with you because even if you examine your beliefs, you fail to see that those beliefs are benefiting no one but yourself and other cronies who benefit under a system dependent on cronyism. You who lived here for 36 years cannot have known the number of people who are unhappy and discontent that I have in my short 9+ years here or you would not think everything is good and you aren't seeing that things are getting worse because you have blinders pointed at the Casa Rosada and the Reina that lives there.

I really doubt you could see better my country than me. Not only because you re a gringo, and you just cant get something as complex and very argentine as peronismo is, just because I know my country. I worked in villas, I studied at UBA, I studied argentine history, I studied argentine society, I studied the rich people and the poor, I walked around poor areas, I worked in the process of making social policies, I know the problems of Argentina. I know how it went growing, I know what happened to the people with different governments, from Rosas to Irigoyen, from Videla to Frondizi. I know the argentine culture, the way of thinking. I know my country pretty well Id say.

 

[ElQueso]

OK, need to reply. Hehe.

lets see:

1) 100% you can never have. As I said, there are opposed interests, and you always, that is every government ever existed in earth, govern for some people and is detrimental to other. Thats the tragedy: you can never have the 100% content, you always have to damage one part of the society. This said, 60% of positive image is quite a lot, concerning world wide politicians images. I atribute that 40% to the power the right has, the concentrated money and their power of convincement. And of course, lots of "normal citizens" who do not share Populismo/autoritarismo/nacionalismo or whatever characteristic Cristina has.

In February she had 30% approval. Since she's gone on the campaign trail for Scioli and bashed Macri, that approval has swung the other way. I've seen reports of her approval rating as low as 19% previously. Argentines are quite emotional and easily swayed (I've seen it!) and just because at the moment there are big approval ratings, doesn't mean people are content. What you are talking about for the power of the "right" (and you think Cristina doesn't have a shitload of money to throw around?) is what I'm talking about both on both sides - you just have blinders set to see only one side.

So what you seem to me to be saying is that Cristina has no propaganda, no power beyond the people themselves, she wins approval only on her accomplishments, while the "right" is the only side that has any support because it throws around a lot of money for propaganda.

2) About the enormous quantity of people employed by this government. I guess we wont agree here, I like big states, states that dominate lots of areas of the society, market regulations, intervention, intervention, intervention. I dont believe in markets, I think thats the main problems of our societies, and States are made to solve or "correct" its faults. So, if we have, like we did, a pro free market government with 25% unemployment during 1o years, and on the other hand you have a 6% unemployment for 10 years, even if they are ñoquis, or they have planes, or they are pure nepotism, it is always better to have them inside the formal economy. I dont know the number, the exact number of how many they are, I know that the State have created lots of new jobs, from policemen to teachers, from forest rangers to intelligence agents. Millions and millions. Public employment. Its not La Campora and militantes only, its a wide spectrum, they are millions, in every branch of the economy. I d choose this current situation that the 25%-small efficient State every day. And efficient is what they claimed.

Do you know how many of those jobs are nothing more than someone collecting a job for doing nothing? I don't know the number myself, but I would bet a year's salary that it is very large. It;s one of the ways Cristina (and any other politico - I'm sure Macri would do the same, and has within his government) ties people to her. But that's OK because she chooses who is going to be successful and the rest can go fish (see below - goes to choosing who is going to be sacrificed).

And how is your belief in a strong state doing for Argentina? Argentina has ignored democracy for the most part at least since Peron (before Peron, 90% of the sitting judges on the supreme court retied or died on the bench. From Peron onward [I don't remember what year the study ended in] it was exactly reversed - 90% of the sitting judges resigned due to government pressure and 10% retired or died on the bench - shows the absolutel lack of democratic institutions, but you're OK with that), and has had a strong government that sticks its nose into things all the time. Certainly the military dictatorship was a strong government that kept its people in line with force (whether you liked it or not - didn't you like who they sacrificed? I'm sure those who were sacrificed didn't either). In the 90s Argentina tried what it thought of as a free market but in reality was not too much different from what's happening today - a lot of money borrowed to pay off cronies. Maybe the cronies then were more in the lines of business and now people who are not businessmen - but what's the difference? Who is sacrificed.

And it sure as hell hasn't lifted nearly as many people out of poverty as other countries who adhere to democratic principles, around the world, while others are sliding into poverty (the sacrificed). There are big problems in my mind with democracies, but they are better than tyranny where a few people think they have the right to tell everyone how to play the game. And any democracy (including the US) who tries to do the same thing will destroy freedom, both economic and personal. As is happening for the last couple of decades at least in the US, and we can all see the results as the debt skyrockets and opportunities drop.

3) Unions are, and were, very strong during the Kirchnerismo. They had to be due inflation, and they were tutoring by the Ks, the paritarias is something the Ks brought back and what Macri and his people dismiss. The real salary in Argentina is one of the best in the region, considering inflation. Our informal job is like 25-30%, so the other 70% works en blanco. Again, one of the best in the region.

Comparing yourselves to the rest of the region is is a half-assed attempt to show you are accomplishing something. The whole region, including Argentina, goes up and and down without ever realizing any long-term growth and stability. And Argentinas ups and down seem to be bigger than most others.

And again, good for the guys in the unions. What are you going to do about the actual majority of people who don't work in unions? Is your thinking that maybe in another 100 years policies like Peron's and Cristina's are going to pay off and people will finally be covered all around? Oh no, I forgot, you are willing to sacrifice them so you and others can live well.

In the meantime, I feel sorry for those poor statistics who aren't really people in the government's eyes, but merely problems to use as political diversion.

4) About education. This was one of the great cuts the last free market government we had did. The total spend was dramatically cutted to have a more efficient state. They, and De la Rua, and Duhalde, invested 2% of GDP to education. This government raised that number to 6.5%, not only that, they multiplied the GDP per two (!) for the ones who say the economy under the Ks is all wrong. Remember carpa docente? why they, the teachers, who have indeed a lot of power (strikes, etc) do not protest anymore? yes there are some isolated episodes during these 12 years, but classes went on normally I would say. That wasnt the case of the last governments.

I'd say you need to quit blaming things on administrations that passed on more than a decade and a half ago. I'm still waiting for the Ks to do something good about education.

Funny thing - you may believe the government's lies about how they've improved education, but I can guarantee you that buying a million laptops was NOT the way to improve things, but it's easier when you have a corporate sponsor to give you a huge break on some out-of-date equipment that no one in the schools can even keep running than it is to make real improvements.

One of my two nephews goes to public school (it took my sister-in-law almost two years to get the younger of the two into a public school in Jose C Paz because there was such a dearth of availability [he was attending a private, cheap school in Villa 31 while he waited], while the other one is going to a private school that we are helping to pay for because his mother can't afford it and has to have her 15-year-old in school - maybe the government should have spent money on building new schools instead of buying computers) and he got a notebook. Cheap piece of crap that has a brand I've never heard of. He uses it to play on - when it works. He's had had problems with his computer that was keeping it from working and I had to fix it because the person at the school had no idea what was wrong with them.

And so the government raised their contributions to education to 6.5% while inflation has been eating away what that 6.5% means? Lol.

As far as the teachers being settled and the strikes going away? Not too long ago I remember strikes. But even if that were the case that they don't strike much anymore, it doesn't matter. I've never seen such a bunch of apathetic seat fillers in my life. The kids go to ask a question and the teachers say "I've already covered that, go figure it out yourself." They give the kids copies of stuff to study then don't cover it in class and give the kids tests on things they haven't even covered. They give out research projects or book reports and tell the kids to go find it on the internet and print it out and bring it to class and the kids don't even know what the subject matter of what they've printed out means.

Education here for the most part is a joke. Given what I've seen in some cases, I'm surprised that literacy is as high as it is and I actually blame the higher literacy on cellphones more than teachers!

I've asked a couple of times if you have any kids. I continue to ask that because this is a side of Argentina that I'm becoming way too familiar with and it's a pisser. I can't help feeling that if you had any kids in school you'd be as outraged as I am. If you had a good education and have noone of your own in school, and you listen to what the government has to say - I think you'd have a quite different outlook on that if you really knew how things are now. And they've gotten worse since I've been here.

5) I m not sure of the "people here tend to accept". People made a huge change in 2001, with the crisis, provoking a president resignation, it is a very politicized society I would say, thats why you always have piquetes, marchas, manifestaciones. Always. Our national sport is to complain. Not to accept.

And yet they don't vote to change anything. They accept things. They get emotioanl, sure, to the current topic of the day, whatever that may be.

2001 was a severe crisis. That's what it took to get people really mad. And now everyone's forgotten about it, it seems, as the current leadership continues to ruin the economy.

6) About housing. Argentina has a huge problem of housing. Google emergencia habitacional. Thats why we have growing villas, thats why we have millions and millions living in very precarious houses. Although a very big percent of that people are recently arrived immigrants. In fact, the social movility makes them improve and then move forward from the villa. In general, of course you will find people who lived in villas for ages. This housing problem is getting worse and worse as time goes by. It has to do with immigration as I said, but its 100% risponsability of the State to provide houses to these people (not in a socialist way but because housing is in fact a Human Right that Argentine constitution signed and ratified)

You are showing me you don't really know much about the immigrant villas. I know too many people in the immigrant villas and they don't want to integrate into society and move upwards. La verguenza no mata, pero duele. They are quite happy staying there in their ignorance and they have no desire to move upwards. Very few move out once they go in. Of course, Argentine immigration policies (admittedly having a lot to do with MERCOSUR as well) and economic policies actually attract poor from other countries. And you all bitch about it while pushing for it. And let them build villas instead of telling them they can't. Of course, there's no one to enforce anything even if the government wanted to get them out.

But I wasn't even talking about the villas and the immigrant population in those villas. I know a lot of Paraguayans and Peruvians (I mean a lot) who don't live in the villas and try to live decent lives amongst Argentinos, registered residents and working in the white. I wasn't even talking about them so much either but they are indeed a good example. Almost everyone I know in this category came here 5-6 years ago and have been pressured more and more every year by lack of mobility in jobs (they are pretty much stuck in the same things, low paying labor and can't break out for the most part) and the inflation. They are now worse off then when they immigrated here.

I'm talking about everyone here when it comes to housing. And you don't even consider that laws like allowing people to stay in a place they aren't paying for, that the owner has the responsibility to support those who don't pay because obviously they have money (which is often bullshit) and it should be their burden, is one of the biggest situations to affect housing here? Who wants to build places for people to live and rent to people, when they don't know if they are going to be able to get them out if they don't pay? For chrissakes! It depresses things. And only propertied people or people who have good ties to propertied people are able to put up garantias to live in decent places. Can't you see the effect that has on things?

And don't talk to me about the government program to build housing for those who can't get good housing. And programs for backing non-property garantias, seguros. It's smoke and mirrors. My hardworking brothers-in-law have tried to get into both programs and are denied. they've been working in the white, all of them, for the last 4+ years. Maybe it's only for the extremely poor, but that's not going to help the "just poor". Not to mention the fact that that housing will be crappy, substandard structures full of mold in little time, and falling apart. Government housing does little or no better than the villas - it concentrates the poor in tenements that suck. It doesn't fix the problem. It's like putting a band-aid on a 40-stitch gash that should be sewn up.

7) As I said, sadly democracy is the tyranny of the majority. You cant have all happy, you have to sacrifice a portion of the society. If so, which one would you chose, the majority or the minority? I ask, because we all know that in fact there is aminority ruling the world, and in most countries, the vote is just one variable of many, and the minorities can not do anything to change. Peronism is exactly that, recognition and rights to the majority. i wish this could be a conquest, like something the lower classes gained, either with strikes, fighting etc, but its not from the bottom to the top, its from the state to the bottom, thats why I say its demagogia, but still, you have the rights, and the unions, you have paid vacations, aguinaldo, health, etc, etc, etc. Its something peronism gave to the people, and they had to fight with a lot of people to obtain that.

Your hubris is quite large, and that of those whom you back.

First of all, you don't even consider that all of the labor laws that hamper businesses could actually be hampering the people. That if the laws weren't so damaging more small businesses would open, some of those by people who would otherwise be employees. More jobs would be available. We don't need a forced "aguinaldo" in the US and yet still people can go on vacation and enjoy themselves. Oh yeah, no one here believes that people in the US have any free time. Right, forgot.

Of course, I've seen working conditions here where yeah, they get paid their aguinaldo, but the owners don't let them go on vacation anyway! They tell them if they leave don't bother coming back. And don't you dare tell me the legal system should take care of that. My sister-in-law is now close to three years waiting for court case to be resolved because she was fired for no reason the day after she informed the owner she was pregnant. She worked for them for two years in the black and the owner hasn't even gotten a slap on the wrist for paying her in black, much less for firing her with two kids and another in the oven. but then again, he's from a well-connected family and even though he's a joke of a lawyer representing himself (he never practiced law, opened up a restaurant and owns apartments and rents them out instead) he still reaps no consequences.

Or maybe justice only works for Argentinos because I've sure heard of a lot of other cases where employees have been fired because they were on purpose trying to get fired and took the employer to the cleaners.

In Argentina, the minority who have money can very easily evade legal problems by paying people off (the scene in Relatos Salvajes with the rich guy buying his son out of his problems was very apropo). You must have at least a semblance of law and order that applies to everyone. the more law and order, applying laws to everyone (I'm not talking about the quantity of laws), the less you will have of elite people doing whatever they want to.

So how is that different than the minority "controlling the world" you talk about? How is it better here?? If the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, etc, are controlled by a minority, I'd rather live under that minority's rule than Argentina's if I were poor, that's for sure!

You won't find me disagreeing with you that democracy is a tyranny of the masses. Yet nothing better has ever been demonstrated as a form of government, that has lifted a huge number of people out of poverty and for democracies who can remain somewhat balanced (unlike, I fear, the US), they provide better opportunities than fascism, communism and other tyrannical governments where a few people decide who will be "sacrificed".

But your choice of the word "sacrificed" is an interesting one. Your suggestion then, is that it is better for a few people in the government to make that choice by force of arms as to who is going to be dirt poor and who is not (or who will live a life of misery, more properly put, and who will not). You obviously have no idea how republican democracy works if you think that the people have no choice. The people are swayed in the US, for example, but the people choose the idiots that rule them. If enough got together to change things, they sure as hell could. People could change things here, too, but they eschew democracy and opt for a father or mother figure to take care of them instead.

But you would have done well with Mao it seems to me (and Cristina, obviously). Kill those who don't agree (whether with real death or with poverty) so that a portion can live well. You believe that there's only one pie and you must control who gets a piece, and how big it is, not in creating more pies for everyone.

If you are going to experiment with the lives of millions of human beings, you should know what the hell you are doing. Given the problems here and the cycles up and down and the large amount of abject poverty, the people who have run this country since at least the time of Peron have not demonstrated they have any idea what they are doing.

If you decide the people are too dumb to be able to make their own decisions within a rather simple framework, you should be ready to reap the consequences when you fail completely and they surprise you with what they do understand. That is, if you haven't destroyed their will power and sense of self first and can do whatever you want to with them, as good as slaves.

In fact, isn't that what the people become if the government tells them how everything will be and actually decides who lives well and who lives in poverty? I've heard that the plantation owners in the Southern States used to talk like that about slaves brought from Africa. After all, they were giving them a place to live, clothes, food and Christianity. How could they prefer the "dirt" in Africa to their obviously better life, even if they had no control over it and hard to work hard? They were, after all, too dumb to know any better, right?

8) I like reading this forum, I dont think you, the people that comment, are always wrong, I read opinions, and yes, the most of the time I just dont agree, but still, there are interesting points of view. And I also like writing posts like this one, it helps practice my english. This could be a detail, but its crucial to me, to read something in english almost every day, to write, etc.

Fair enough i apologize if I got a little too personal in some of my responses, but I'm tired, sick and had recently finished helping our second oldest with her math homework (3 long hours), doing the teacher's job of showing her where she was going wrong (did you know that they don't even go over tests after they hand them back and show where the students went wrong?). I should probably not write when I'm in such a state

 

[mikic007]

@98000

There is a lot of fails in your post, I'm sorry to say. I won't be as long as you 2,but will try to make done point .

About public jobs, it is quadruple bad to employ people that do nothing. First, you are wasting money for something you don't need, second, you prevent these people to produce, by preventing the producing sector to employ them, third, people get used to get money for no work and effort, what is hard to change later, and last but not least, you weaken the democracy by bribing huge part of electorate, what result on very unhealthy voting, because people will, no matter what, always vote for their salary and benefits.

If you put that money into investments and reliefs for real sector to employ, you are doing far better on long run, but is true that people will be less inclined to vote for you, because it's more complicated system, and you actually have to work.

About unemployment, I was afraid that at the end you will come to -2%, you actually could, since a lot of people that work in black are not even with papers here. So according to your calculations you could be the only country with negative unemployment...

Seriously, you can't count black market as employed, this is absurd! And here is where Argentina really fails, rules are indeed to be respected by minority, from traffic, crime, corruption,.. till black job and money market. That stance actually position Argentina into third world, not how much money it has!

About syndicates I won't loose much words, they are simple mafia with too much influence. They greatly contribute to inequality in this country and far from free. I'm obliged to pay 5% of my salary and even when I wanted to quit that, was impossible.. Here we could write a horror book, but let's just say, that syndicates in Argentina are in big part guilty for the problems we face.

You present them as they are saviours from inflation, but they are actually increasing it. It's like someone push you to the mud and then gives you handkerchief, and you are so great fun for it, that you don't remember who put you there in the first place. Goes the same for the government..

Argentines are often saying, that you are angry and go on the street often, but what you fail to mention is, that that doesn't change nothing, or only benefit the strongest groups (like drivers, bankers, public workers) and increase inequality.

Argentina is rich country, that actually don't need its people, at least not majority. So government can afford the bribes, just to keep stealing resources. And this is all what you need to know about politics here...

 

[ElQueso]

I really doubt you could see better my country than me. Not only because you re a gringo, and you just cant get something as complex and very argentine as peronismo is, just because I know my country. I worked in villas, I studied at UBA, I studied argentine history, I studied argentine society, I studied the rich people and the poor, I walked around poor areas, I worked in the process of making social policies, I know the problems of Argentina. I know how it went growing, I know what happened to the people with different governments, from Rosas to Irigoyen, from Videla to Frondizi. I know the argentine culture, the way of thinking. I know my country pretty well Id say.

Saying that I couldn't possibly see your country's problems better than you seems to me to be quite emotional and an example of non-critical thinking. It reminds me of something many proud Paraguayans say: Every Paraguayan can speak Guarani whether they admit it or not - they are born knowing how to speak as it issues from the blood.

While I would agree that there are nuances that I don't understand, that doesn't mean that being a gringo who didn't grow up here keeps me from seeing how your government, and Peronism in particular, screws things up. It's like saying nothing more than you are going to believe what you want to believe come hell or high water, and Peron's sand is just fine for you to stick your head into, thank you very much

What you are is a product of your country, and that doesn't mean that everything you think about your country's, and its society's, problems is correct. Goes back to not seeing the forest for the trees. It is an emotional judgement without fact to back it up, to try to minimize my opinions. My facts are demonstrated by the results, which are open for everyone to see - the country is a mess. One simply has to stop and look at other sources for a moment and consider them with an open mind.

The hardest thing I ever did in my life was to examine myself, my country, my beliefs and those of my culture that have influenced me from the moment I was born. It's a never-ending process and I'm still doing it. I have seen nothing that indicates to me that fascism, brought by legendary figures of the past and inculcated endlessly since then (no matter that it was attempted to be suppressed forcefully by other dictators who had their own, wrong, vision - it doesn't make Peron's ideas right either) has done anything to improve Argentina and its citizens' lives, except for the few who are fortunate enough to have benefited from the corruption that these tyrannical policies bring about.

What I do see of Argentinos and Peronism is the embracing of a myth that was never reality, with an emotional feeling quite similar to which futbol team one pays allegiance to (not the national team, but Boca, etc) and will fight to prove said allegiance and the "fact" that one's team is "best" - no matter what evidence to the contrary that may exist and how much damage defending that position may cause.

 

[sesamosinsal]

Let's just imagine that 10 percent of the population is indeed employed by the Argentine state -- the real number isn't so relevant to the discussion. Let's also imagine (haha) that Macri wins, and cuts that number down to 3 percent. So, official unemployment jumps to 15 percent approximately.

In a perfect scenario, the 7 percent of freshly unemployed people are absorbed by the private sector and have no major impact on salaries. In a mediocre scenario, some of those people are employed by the private sector, while the others remain unemployed; wage growth is impacted somewhat. In the worst scenario, almost none of them are employed by the private sector, and wage growth is significantly impacted.

ElQueso, mikick007, et al: If you were Presidente de la Nación, how would you handle the mediocre and worst scenarios? Keep in mind that in those two scenarios, not only do people lose their jobs and often lower their salary expectations, they also reduce their own spending, which adversely affects thousands of small and medium sized businesses and even local governments/the national government as tax revenues fall.

In my opinion, there is always a cost to unemployment, and I'd prefer for it to be just an economic one rather than both a social and economic one, as is the case in many so-called "developed countries."

 

[thorsten]

What about the scenario where the state employs so much people that it cannot afford paying them sustainably, thus leading to a growing fiscal deficit? At some point, money printing/currency swaps/ANSES raiding will also result in both economic and social effects and most often when reforms are necessary reforms are postponed until the system blows up, it won't be pretty...

I agree, however, with your general point: even if the oppositions wins, no matter what they do it won't be easy as the necessary changes cannot be made short-term without having negative social and economic effects. But doing nothing/worsening the situation doesn't seem a viable solution either to me.