Another crisis 1999-2002

[HeyBA]

heyba, interesting, even i partially disagree.
Let s talk about facts. When the pension system become private, the argument was that politicians used that money for the cash flow of the country. You know what happend? The private pension companies lend the same money to the state for the cash flow. After 10 years the internal debt grew 100 percent. Why to pay interest for the same money can be used for free?

There is a difference. If the companies belong to the state, then the state has income and it doesn t need to take debts that later cannot be paid.

You mention to loot, a country is not a company or a simple loan taker whpo you can foreclosure his house. People can riot, politicians can change and countries have armies.

Argentina is out of the internation financial system.
So, argentina should spend only what argentina exports. Isn t it real austerity?????

Good point Bajo_Cero. Although some of K's policies rub me the wrong way on a practical level, in some ways I think she really is rebelling against the financial powers that be, and I some days I think it might work.

Your right that "real austerity" should be something akin to a country just importing what it exports or just spending what it makes in revenues. The "austerity" of the banker-run model is simply to shift private losses to public, maybe call it "fraudsterity".

 

[solerboy]

If the US would have the same (non-existant) immigration laws as Argentina, the American would soon be a foreigner in his/her own country.

I thought that already happend, about 150 years ago.

 

[El chabon]

I thought that already happend, about 150 years ago.

How did that end?

 

[ElQueso]

Your thinking that no foreigner coming to live in Argentina becomes a citizen?

1 milion people who entered in the patria grande are or are now becoming citizens.

I would like to see how many naturalized citizen there are in Argentina and how many % voted for Cristina, that must have been atleast 80%, and that is probally a low guess.

I'm saying that those who go through the process of citizenship are not the same ones you are saying are causing all the problems. While a large precentage of those who immigrate, integrate and become citizens might vote for Cristina in larger percentages, they are not the drug dealers, thieves and other undesirables that are causing the problem.

You can post how easy it is to get citizenship (I'm assuming that was what your previous post was about, though it has no title declaring it as such) but you miss the point that the idiots who cause social problems are those who do not vote and do not have a say in the direction of the country (however poor that decision might be), because they don't even bother to try to get citizenship, nor RESIDENCY even.

Cristina already has a high percentage of Argentine poor from which to draw her votes. If you were to tell me that those poor living in the villas (who I can almost guarantee you, if any of them have citizenship at all, it is an extremely low percentage) were voters and thus contributing to her base, I'd be right with you.

But those who are causing the problems are not those who vote and have a stake in the country in that way.

And btw - making guesses about how many voted for Cristina doesn't make a very good argument. You seem to be stuck in the same thought pattern that all who are becoming citizens are those drug dealers and thieves. I'd be willing to bet, from actual experience of seeing those who go through the process of legalization, if not citizenship, compared to those who sit on their asses, don't get legalized, and do the best they can to get away with doing nothing, that the latter percentage of citizenship is extremely low.

Although my family doesn't live int he villa, they know people who do and have visited there from time to time. I've gone as well. There are acquaintances from Paraguay who do come to live there, they are ignorant as hell, they pay extremely low prices for everything wthin the villa and work as absolutely little as possible.

They will never become residents, nor citizens. They don't even think about it. They will never vote for Cristina.

On top of that, Cristina didn't make the immigration policies here. The problem with Argentina is not their immigration policy. In the six years I've lived here, I've watched theft and crime get worse, not because of immigration policies, but because of governmental policies that started before Cristina, who just made things worse. Again, plenty of Argentinos who make that vote, not drug dealers who are here irregularly.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Requisitos:
• Ser mayor de dieciocho años.
• Tener dos años de residencia ininterrumpida y documentada en el país, certificada por la Dirección Nacional de Migraciones.
Documentación Exigida:
• Partida de nacimiento legalizada por el consulado argentino en el país de origen.
• Fotocopia de D.N.I., cédula, pasaporte.
• Certificado de domicilio original.
• Justificación de medios de vida: contrato de trabajo, certificado de trabajo actual o recibo de sueldo. En caso de ser autónomo, fotocopia de comprobante de aportes.

And yeah really complicated. Foreigners(most of them who also recieve social plans) are just a really big supportbase of Cristina and it will keep on supplying her with votes

You are misinformed.
These are the requirements for starting the case.
The Federal Judge investigates the person who applies regarding criminal and terrorist background. The investigation takes 7 months.
So, it is not so simple.
Regards

 

[solerboy]

How did that end?

John Wayne walling off into the sunset

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Good point Bajo_Cero. Although some of K's policies rub me the wrong way on a practical level, in some ways I think she really is rebelling against the financial powers that be, and I some days I think it might work.

Your right that "real austerity" should be something akin to a country just importing what it exports or just spending what it makes in revenues. The "austerity" of the banker-run model is simply to shift private losses to public, maybe call it "fraudsterity".

Now we agree 100%

 

[arlean]

Bajo, there hasn't been a free market in the United States for about 80 years. Sadly many people seem unaware of that. A free market is when the government stays out of things and lets the market work. That used to be true in the US and that was when the U.S. prospered. The free market was not lost to the people all at once though. It was infringed on little by little by the governments and by corporations using their connections in government to keep out or drive out competition. A true free market brings properity. Usually the more government interference you have the poor and less efficient is the country and the people.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Bajo, there hasn't been a free market in the United States for about 80 years. Sadly many people seem unaware of that. A free market is when the government stays out of things and lets the market work. That used to be true in the US and that was when the U.S. prospered. The free market was not lost to the people all at once though. It was infringed on little by little by the governments and by corporations using their connections in government to keep out or drive out competition. A true free market brings properity. Usually the more government interference you have the poor and less efficient is the country and the people.

The point is that the "perfect" market doesn´t exist and it is desirable that the State interferes to avoid abuse when there is monopoly, oligopoly and cartels.

Here the market is small and easy to manipulate. Remember (when I don t remember his name) claimed for lomo at 80 pesos? Farmers did it.

Regards

 

[el_expatriado]

The point is that the "perfect" market doesn´t exist and it is desirable that the State interferes to avoid abuse when there is monopoly, oligopoly and cartels.

The problem in Argentina is that the State is the biggest monopoly, oligopoly and cartel.

Argentina is the perfect example of the Leviathan State run amok. Argentina is a textbook case of the crony capitalism model, where the state picks winners and losers in the market.

Countries that are plagued with corruption (like Argentina) should reduce state activity and control to a minimum to minimize corruption. Only in developed social democratic countries with strong institutions (i.e. Europe) can state intervention produce positive results.