Another Mass Shooting In The Us...

[bobg]

If you were inside a restaurant and a guy walked in and started systematically shooting people one-by-one would you rather be holding a pistol or a fork?
...

A couple of thoughts ...

1) Maybe a fork since the guy who walked in would likely shoot all of the people with weapons first;

2) If I want to kill a few people in a restaurant and have to worry about a few people in the restaurant being armed, then instead of using a gun I might use something more lethal - like a bomb. Surely that would not result in less carnage.

3) But the main point is that I am not worried about you carrying a gun, concealed or not. I am worried about nut jobs carrying guns. And the problem I have is that I do not know how to distinguish between you and the nut jobs and the people who might have a meltdown in a sufficiently frustrating situation.

Bob

 

[cwo4uscgret]

The self-defense argument is another NRA propaganda. The facts are pretty clear but I'm pretty sure someone can come up with some anecdotal evidence of a friend of a distant relative who read an NRA article describing that someone prevented a crime using his gun - which is clearly more relevant than any real scientific study for people who just want to see their point of view validated...

Say what? Although I am not a member of the NRA nor a financial or otherwise supporter of them their monthly magazine THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN has a monthly column called, "The Armed Citizen" which usually lists 3-5 paragraphs about how a person be it a shopkeeper, a senior citizen living by herself, or some other person, being victimized by an armed criminal is able to get their hands on their legally owned firearm and stop the threat. It is a daily occurrence that a bad guy(s) are stopped by an armed good guy. Unfortunately some of the criminals are successful in their crime and a good person is either killed or injured.

I know from my own personal experiences that carrying a concealed handgun stopped someone from being beaten to death with an aluminum baseball bat; this as others were watching, but not doing anything to stop it. The victim already had a 4-6" gash on his head and his face was covered with blood. Or would you suggest that I just kept driving by?

No amount of gun control laws - will ever stop criminal's from committing violent crimes with weapons be it a gun, knife, club, auto, broken glass bottle; in law enforcement we were taught what deadly force is and when it was appropriate when to use deadly force to stop a threat. Even though I am retired I am required to annually show my proficiency with a firearm in order to carry one concealed. If I am ever in a situation where I can lend help to a law enforcement officer in distress you better believe that I will...the same goes for anyone in peril. It is in my blood...to assist.

On the issue of Open Carry of firearms - there were several people at the demonstration in Dallas, open carrying long guns. One man was supposedly identified by the DPD as one of the shooters and they were looking for him. According to his FB posts he reported to the DPD, surrendered his rifle voluntarily, and offered his assistance. Although I am not a fan of open carry and really I go on alert when I see someone open carrying a long gun, slung at port arms (in front of the body pointing up about 45 degrees) I support gun rights just as I do freedom of speech, religion, all the Constitution...

The shooting of two men, in Lousiana and Minnesota was terrible. If in fact they were not legitimate shootings then I hope the officers involved are charged and receive appropriate sentences; the murder of 5 police officers and wounding 7 other officers and 2 civilians was heinous. CNN in an interview with the DPD Chief of Police questioned why the sniper was killed by the police. Really?

However, this is a thread about being Expat and living in Buenos Aires. I know that some gun ownership in Argentina is legal - I have a friend who is Argentinian and owns firearms; and have been to the National Gun Club of Argentina, a beautiful facility in a very nice neighborhood.

What would the police do in BA if a shooter went on a rampage and killed some police officers? What would you do if some armed criminal broke into you home? Sometimes it is a necessary evil that must be used.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

On the issue of Open Carry of firearms - there were several people at the demonstration in Dallas, open carrying long guns. One man was supposedly identified by the DPD as one of the shooters and they were looking for him. According to his FB posts he reported to the DPD, surrendered his rifle voluntarily, and offered his assistance. Although I am not a fan of open carry and really I go on alert when I see someone open carrying a long gun, slung at port arms (in front of the body pointing up about 45 degrees) I support gun rights just as I do freedom of speech, religion, all the Constitution...

I agree 100% with this.

I also think it's ridiculous to walk around in town with an AR-15 slung over one's shoulder as if you were on patrol in Kandahar and anyone who does has some serious envy issues. As well, I think it is incorrect to assume that more guns = fewer mass shootings. I am not a proponent of arming everyone and the chance of having someone who is carrying, who is trained, and who happens to be at the exact right place at the exact right time - and who is able to think straight and take the right action in a chaotic and evolving scenario, to actually shoot the shooter and not shoot other bystanders is very, very small.

 

[thorsten]

Say what? Although I am not a member of the NRA nor a financial or otherwise supporter of them their monthly magazine THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN has a monthly column called, "The Armed Citizen" which usually lists 3-5 paragraphs about how a person be it a shopkeeper, a senior citizen living by herself, or some other person, being victimized by an armed criminal is able to get their hands on their legally owned firearm and stop the threat. It is a daily occurrence that a bad guy(s) are stopped by an armed good guy. Unfortunately some of the criminals are successful in their crime and a good person is either killed or injured.

You see, discussing these topics doesn't lead to much as long as people believe in anecdotal evidence and highly biased magazines more than independent scientific studies. It's like saying human-induced climate-warming doesn't exist because it was pretty cold in B.A. the last weeks and there's a conspiracy site on the internet that states it's wrong, so why should I trust what scientists in institutions like NASA have to say...

 

[khairyexpat]

You see, discussing these topics doesn't lead to much

Beliefs and values are the most difficult to change (if not all together impossible).
This thread does not sound like a debate. No one is looking for any solution. Line in the sand.
Sounds more like a battle for survival, .... existence at stake.

 

[nlaruccia]

A couple of thoughts ...

1) Maybe a fork since the guy who walked in would likely shoot all of the people with weapons first;

2) If I want to kill a few people in a restaurant and have to worry about a few people in the restaurant being armed, then instead of using a gun I might use something more lethal - like a bomb. Surely that would not result in less carnage.

3) But the main point is that I am not worried about you carrying a gun, concealed or not. I am worried about nut jobs carrying guns. And the problem I have is that I do not know how to distinguish between you and the nut jobs and the people who might have a meltdown in a sufficiently frustrating situation.

Bob

I would choose neither. I'd prefer the government take charge of making sure that people don't walk into restaurants carrying guns since gun vendors can't distinguish between a mentally healthy person or a nut job.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I would choose neither. I'd prefer the government take charge of making sure that people don't walk into restaurants carrying guns since gun vendors can't distinguish between a mentally healthy person or a nut job.

Today you can't just walk into a gun dealership and purchase a firearm. You must pass a Federal background check. It is not the vendor's responsibility to assess a person's mental state. I don't think the "Gun-show loop-hole" is still available. I do think the background check is pretty thin. Mostly, if you don't have a criminal record, you can purchase a firearm.

 

[steveinbsas]

I would choose neither. I'd prefer the government take charge of making sure that people don't walk into restaurants carrying guns since gun vendors can't distinguish between a mentally healthy person or a nut job.

The only way the government could "take charge of making sure that people don't walk into restaurants carrying guns" would be to ban both concealed and open carry of firearms. All law abiding individuals would therefore (by definition) never carry a firearm in public. Unfortunately, that would do nothing to prevent any individual who has either legally or illegally acquired a firearm from walking into a restaurant (or a school, a gay bar, a courthouse, etc.) carrying a gun...and using it.

How can a gun vendor determine the mental health of any customer? A background check for criminal history wouldn't necessarily reveal it. Someone with no history of mental health issues who was "having (another) a bad day" could still buy a gun and, after the waiting period was over, go and shoot as many people as possible in a restaurant. Of course then it would be better if no one in the restaurant was carrying a gun, because, as one member here asserted, after the shooting was over they (the surviving restaurant patrons who were armed) would go out and shoot more people nearby.

It has been reported that well before the massacre the Orlando shooter tried to buy body armor and 1,000 rounds of ammunition. The vendor not only refused to complete the sale, he also called the FBI. It has also been reported that the shooter had previously been interviewed twice by the FBI. That's certainly a lot more scrutiny by the government than the normal background check.

The government could outlaw all guns, but we all know what the answer to that is.

 

[Ries]

Today you can't just walk into a gun dealership and purchase a firearm. You must pass a Federal background check. It is not the vendor's responsibility to assess a person's mental state. I don't think the "Gun-show loop-hole" is still available. I do think the background check is pretty thin. Mostly, if you don't have a criminal record, you can purchase a firearm.

I think you are wrong.
I am not sure about the absolute latest info, but the most recent stuff I can find online says 33 states do NOT require background checks on "private" sales, which generally means gun shows, or any private person to person sale. Many ways of advertising- my local paper here in Washington State still allows personal gun classified ads, and guns are frequently sold without background checks at garage sales in many many states.
In many states, including mine, even though its technically required to have a background check on a private sale, there is no enforcement, unless the gun is found to have been used in a felony, and can be traced back to the seller.
That means that lots and lots of private sales without background checks still occur all the time. And we are a state with "strict" rules.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Gun-Shows.htm

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I think you are wrong.
I am not sure about the absolute latest info, but the most recent stuff I can find online says 33 states do NOT require background checks on "private" sales, which generally means gun shows, or any private person to person sale. Many ways of advertising- my local paper here in Washington State still allows personal gun classified ads, and guns are frequently sold without background checks at garage sales in many many states.
In many states, including mine, even though its technically required to have a background check on a private sale, there is no enforcement, unless the gun is found to have been used in a felony, and can be traced back to the seller.
That means that lots and lots of private sales without background checks still occur all the time. And we are a state with "strict" rules.

http://civilliberty....a/Gun-Shows.htm

Thanks for the correction!