Argentina questions allied attacks on Gaddafi

[notebook.fix]

Oh well...if memory serves me right then there's a little contradiction in your political values Gillo!

Aren't you & your K Komrades here all about being anti-US ....The Evil Empire?????

So, now you're saying that the Evil Empire's hand picked dictator of choice should be allowed to stay in power after 40yrs?

oh...yes...you make so much more sense now.

Ja ja ja ja ja ja ...

You seem to forget that the US was one of the supporters of the military coup at that time. Your memory is so selective....

 

[Johnno]

Its a shame that the only real issue here is the only real issue that hasn't been discussed - its whether or not ANY superpower or gang of superpowers has the right to attack/invade/interfere in the affairs of another sovereign state - just because they dislike what is going on within its borders...

At the end of the day - this is what it comes down to - and there are only two possible answers - one is that yes, these superpowers can interfere/attack/effect regime change/pretty much anything else they want - OR the second option is that they have to keep their nose out of the affairs of other countries and let them sort out their own messes...

We can see, from experience, how the first option has worked out so far; Gulf Wars, Iraq, Afghanistan - surely NOBODY out there is going to say that these wars achieved anything except for a lot of allied servicemen coming home in body bags and the taxpayer footing the bill (?)

Oh - and the most important achievement of all - that in each case the situation is now WORSE in each place and widespread hate for the west and all westerners has also been achieved... (To a LARGE extent each of these efforts has done a WONDERFUL job of recruiting the next generation of hate filled Al Qaeda volunteers/etc.)

Every member of my family has served in one service or another over the last 100 years - including myself - even the women were army nurses - I have NOTHING but respect and admiration for those who have the guts to put on the uniform to serve their country - and I have nothing but DISGUST for criminal politicians who put soldiers in harms way when it is uncalled for...

To me the basic principle is a simple one - if another nation is attacking you then by ALL MEANS declare war and send your armed services to do their job - to put their lives on the line to protect and defend you from the enemy aggressor - but as I said previously, the last time I looked the Libyan Navy was not off the coast of the continental US bombarding it, there were no Libyan aircraft flying over Washington strafing civilians and no Libyan paratroopers being dropped over California...

I don't particularly like Gaddafi or leaders like him - but for me thats not the issue - for whatever reason he is the leader of Libya - has been for 40 years - and was helped to seize power by the same nations that are now bombing Libya - so if we apply a little bit of logic here perhaps the one lesson we can learn from this is that every time we mess in the affairs of other countries - especially middle eastern islamic states - we make things worse - not better - so surely the answer is to butt out and let these people sort out their own problems...

At the very least we'd have billions more dollars to spend on schools, hospitals, infrastructure and what is needed by the citizens of our own countries - rather than on missiles and weapons delivery systems - and not have so many coffins coming home draped in US, UK and Australian flags (and others)...

I might be insanely idealistic here - but as they say, charity begins at home - and it makes sense to put your own house in order before you worry about anyone else's lol

I'll happily bet 10 bucks that after we've wasted millions and/or billions on this latest adventure (Libya) we will have nothing to show for it in terms of making anything better (apart from serving the interests of a very select few) but I will also guarantee that we will be making a rod for our own back and making the whole east versus west situation even worse - that is one thing I think we can guarantee we'll achieve...

 

[ptolemy]

Its a shame that the only real issue here is the only real issue that hasn't been discussed.........

I might be insanely idealistic here - but as they say, charity begins at home - and it makes sense to put your own house in order before you worry about anyone else's lol

I'll happily bet 10 bucks that after we've wasted millions and/or billions on this latest adventure (Libya) we will have nothing to show for it in terms of making anything better (apart from serving the interests of a very select few) but I will also guarantee that we will be making a rod for our own back and making the whole east versus west situation even worse - that is one thing I think we can guarantee we'll achieve...

Good point. The problem with most of these discussions is the first time this <USA> is mentioned, well, the whole discussion becomes like sh**t to flies. Oh yes, you are “insanely idealistic,” and I would bet more than 10 bucks on that bet.

 

[A&A]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

 

[A&A]

Of course for those of you on the other side of the fence:

We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.
Neville Chamberlain

Of course you can Wiki Neville Chamberlain to see how that worked out for him....*spoiler alert*...(not so great...)

 

[notebook.fix]

I personally marched in the Sydney demos against the invasion of Iraq back '03...how could they pin 911 on Iraq was my biggest question. <- Note: ((((Non UN mission)))) !!

Afghanistan is a total disaster, mismanaged from the start.

Now in 2011 there's a popular pro democracy uprising & Libya is the fourth of these middle Eastern Countries who want freedom from Wetsern backed despots...& according to the rationale, some here are very happy to sit back & allow these murderous tyrants stay in power & butcher their own populations ....oh Egypt should have stayed with Mubarack? Yemen & Bahrain should keep their dictators too? Tunisia???

Please stop comparing apples with oranges...in 2011 we have a completely different set of socio political dynamics emerging in these middle Eastern countries ...any basic insight will reveal the stark differences between the excuses for invading Iraq/Afghanistan & the UN approved/agreed allied action in Libya.

I'll agree that it's NOT in the USAs own interest to be involved in this costly operation, the internal political cost that the Obama administration will have to pay will be seen very shortly...they should have let the Europeans sort out their own back yard problems.

Aren't people of the Middle East allowed to right the past wrongs of the West? Or are we to sit back & watch another Balkans style slaughter on our screens for the next 6months?

EDIT: And yes I'm also against the violation of sovereign rights, especially when it comes to the third world.... we indirectly help to violate the sovereign rights of the weaker third world nations when we blindly buy products & support global corporate monsters (coca cola/Nestles/Big Pharma/military Industrial Complex etc etc) that exploit & bribe corrupt (K-ough K-ough!!) politicians in these countries. You don't need me to remind you that monopolistic corporate dictatorships don't necessarily adhere to free market principles.

...so...back to Gaddafi...to me ..he's a bi-product of our Western moral indifference.

Maybe it's time to own up & take rsponsability as consumers.... Don't drink Coke

 

[Amargo]

...so...back to Gaddafi...to me ..he's a bi-product of our Western moral indifference.

This, this, this and this does not really look like indiference. These pictures say it all.

 

[notebook.fix]

Amargo, please look up the word 'Indifference'.

And, thanks for going to the trouble of illustrating my point so well.

This, this, this and this does not really look like indiference. These pictures say it all.

 

[jaredwb]

I wasn't going to post on this thread since it was clearly going to become a "EVIL WESTERN COUNTRIES" bashing thread....but I'm tired of all that crap. But I think there is a MAJOR, and really the only point, that has been missed.

The U.S. could not stand by while Qaddafi was murdering his own citizens. WOMEN AND CHILDREN included.

True, there are other countries that atrocities are occurring but unfortunately we aren't able to fix everything.

HOWEVER, when a terrorist WHO HAS ATTACKED AND KILLED AMERICANS announces to the World that he is going to crush the opposition and show no mercy, if we had done nothing, it would have been MORALLY wrong. (And of course, all you anti-US cronies would be screaming that we didn't do anything.)

Regardless of how you feel about the U.S. we have a responsibility to protect the lives of every person around the World AS BEST AS WE ARE ABLE.

 

[Hache]

I don't agree with this, very often wrong opinions lead to more damage than the problem itself.

Thanks Amargo, but I disagree with you.

Silence and indifference lead nowhere, while the problem remains. Saying what you think can be a learning experience. An example: On countless times I have been corrected in boards like this, sometimes to the point of embarrassment. It's up to us to choose between being reasonable and stand corrected admitting we were wrong, while learning from the experience, or frenzying into an ill-pride-driven, denial self-defense mechanism that will embarrass us even further while making nothing but damage to the argument and those taking part in it.

This applies to any forum, from BAExpats to the UN itself. Yes, world politics are far more complex and far more things are at stake, but all arguments taking place in BAExpats, the UN, the US Congress, or the Milky Way Starship Union for that matter share one common factor: the possibility of reaching a positive, constructive end.

A&A quoted William Burke. Silence is passive. It can be good in certain cases, but definitely not when solving a conflict requires active participation.