Argentine citizenship for foreigners?

[gunt86]

That is not right. An American-born Al Quaeda fighter captured in Afghanistan was not stripped of his citizenship and was tried as an American.

As I said, I went all the way up the chain at the State Department to get an answer to that question. Talked to several officials and was put through to the head of the department dealing with such issues. I requested, and got, a letter confirming that the only way to lose citizenship is to formally renounce it in a written statement sworn before the proper authorities.

You should think twice before passing mere opinions and hearsay as facts. Misinformation on this subject could do a great deal of harm.

The issue is that if a US citizen naturalizes in another country and then joins the military of that country. It is the combination of naturalization and intent that creates the problem. There have been numerous legal cases about this. It is not just restricted to military service, there are lots of other things as well. Joining the intelligence services of your naturalization country of citizenship is another big no-no.

 

[steveinbsas]

In the past two days there have been several posts about the possibility of applying for citizenship in Argentina as an alternative to applying for temporary or permanent residency. I have been a member of this forum for four years and don't recall anyone posting that they had actually applied for or received Argentine citizenship.

I do remember that one of the attorneys wrote that citizenship required two years of permanent residency, but that's all. A post in the past day or two made reference to a constitutional provision that anyone who has lived in Argentina for two years may apply for citizenship, regardless of their status with Argentine migraciones.

The constitution has already been quoted. Now I'd like to know if anyone out there has applied for Argentine citizenship. What was required? What was the procedure? What was the result? I am not asking the lawyers and I am not asking about those who applied as the spouse or parent of an Argentine, just those who applied as a foreigner living in Argentina. I'm sure many others would like to know about your personal experience with the process.

 

[gunt86]

You really are very presumptuous and rude. I HAVE researched this and it seems I'm actually better at it.

From what I understand, you are not a US citizen by birth so it's understandable that you have a different perspective. But that doesn't make you correct.

As I said before, I know you are pissed off with Steve but don't drag me into you little fight.

You have fully brought yourself into any altercation you think that you might have with me. How is your homework coming along? Don't get distracted by your insecurities or fixated on bragging about your research skills! Even a merkin can do it!

 

[mini]

The issue is that if a US citizen naturalizes in another country and then joins the military of that country. It is the combination of naturalization and intent that creates the problem. There have been numerous legal cases about this. It is not just restricted to military service, there are lots of other things as well. Joining the intelligence services of your naturalization country of citizenship is another big no-no.

Now I really know you don't know what you are talking about. You should have stopped earlier when you at least could have kept pretending.

And as I said, I highly doubt Laurel is going to seek a high level military position in Argentina... But maybe she is.

Hey, I too know how to cut & paste.

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http://travel901d.his.com/law/citizenship/citizenship_780.html

DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE

In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:

- is naturalized in a foreign country;
- takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
- serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
- accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,
and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed.

When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship.

 

[mini]

You have fully brought yourself into any altercation you think that you might have with me.

No. I answered Laurel's general question with a general answer. Since you were in a pissy mood you decided to have a fight.

 

[steveinbsas]

In the past two days there have been several posts about the possibility of applying for citizenship in Argentina as an alternative to applying for temporary or permanent residency. I have been a member of this forum for four years and don't recall anyone posting that they had actually applied for or received Argentine citizenship.

I do remember that one of the attorneys wrote that citizenship required two years of permanent residency, but that's all. A post in the past day or two made reference to a constitutional provision that anyone who has lived in Argentina for two years may apply for citizenship, regardless of their status with Argentine migraciones.

The constitution has already been quoted. Now I'd like to know if anyone out there has applied for Argentine citizenship. What was required? What was the procedure? What was the result? I am not asking the lawyers and I am not asking about those who applied as the spouse or parent of an Argentine, just those who applied as a foreigner living in Argentina. I'm sure many others would like to know about your personal experience with the process.

 

[SaraSara]

The issue is that if a US citizen naturalizes in another country and then joins the military of that country. It is the combination of naturalization and intent that creates the problem. There have been numerous legal cases about this. It is not just restricted to military service, there are lots of other things as well. Joining the intelligence services of your naturalization country of citizenship is another big no-no.

As I said, just opinions and the vaguest generalizations : "numerous legal cases"... "lots of other things as well"...

 

[gunt86]

Hey, I too know how to cut & paste.

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http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

Thanks for doing some research. Too bad you cut and paste the wrong thing. Don't worry, that sort of thing happens to feeble minds like you and I excuse you for it.
If you had read the entire document, you would have noticed that it states
DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS INAPPLICABLE
The premise that a person intends to retain U.S. citizenship is not applicable when the individual:

1. formally renounces U.S. citizenship before a consular officer;
2. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the United States;
3. takes a policy level position in a foreign state;
4. is convicted of treason; or
5. performs an act made potentially expatriating by statute accompanied by conduct which is so inconsistent with retention of U.S. citizenship that it compels a conclusion that the individual intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship.

These points are are much more encompassing than they sound. Although they don't explicitly state it, they do in fact prohibit intelligence service. They all give the Dept of State quite a large net to strip someone of citizenship if the Dept of State wants to. Point 5 is completely vague and thus allows the Dept of State to determine whatever it wants! Of course that person can fight the action with other legal or congressional means if they have the resources ( I think there was some US/Estonian guy who did this).

The reason i pressed you on this topic is that is important to flesh out what dual citizenship means for a US citizen as it is not "100% ok". Unlike many other countries, the US does not have legislation formally allowing dual citizenship, so that is why it is really a 'grey' area, subject to judicial interpretation and case law. That is pretty important to remember.

And special thanks for helping hijack Steve's precious thread!
P.S. i notice that you didn't say anything about peerage. That's your next homework assignment.

 

[mini]

Thanks for doing some research. And special thanks for helping hijack Steve's precious thread!

It's funny that you say that as I clearly did my research before positing. I'm just surprised you didn't look in the right place. It would have saved you a lot of effort.

I'm sure Steve doesn't mind me hijacking his thread as it's been useful to show that you have dubious research skills.

P.S. i notice that you didn't say anything about peerage.

You have a serious problem with the term GENERAL don't you.

 

[steveinbsas]

Thanks for doing some research.

What research have you done, really?

As Sara noted:

... just opinions and the vaguest generalizations : "numerous legal cases"... "lots of other things as well"...

Do you have any knowledge whatsoever about specific cases of foreigners who actually applied for citizenship in Argentina?

While I have not yet applied for citizenship, I have done as much research on the topic as i can....
...I have provided for you what i know about the subject based upon numerous conversation with immigration lawyers in Argentina...None of what i have stated is based on hearsay or wild speculation on my part...You can take what i have provided (which i have also paid for by the way) and use it or you can go your own route.

I'm still waiting for someone who has actually applied for citizenship to reply to this thread. Obviously there haven't been many and Gunther didn't cite one actual case, even though he claims to have paid "immigration lawyers" for his information. All he's managed to do here (besides insulting others) is make vague suggestions that having dual citizenship is problematic and that someone applying for citizenship in Argentina should comply with the law, even though Gunther (along with the rest of us) isn't certain what that really is. If the law is vague and citizenship is granted on a case by case basis, it would be very helpful to know about some of those cases!

Only those who have been through the process can know exactly what was required. Their lawyers would know, too, but Gunther ain't one of 'em and either none of those he paid told him or he just ain't sharin'.