Ba And Epidemic Corruption

The US has corruption, no doubt about it. In fact, it seems to get worse all the time, or perhaps that as one gets older one realizes what corruption is.

However, the big difference is where the corruption is. In the US, I never had to pay a police office to watch my house or my store, beyond the taxes I paid that were targeted to pay those police. Not saying there were no corrupt cops, but the police weren't paid so poorly that they were expected to make their living from those they were supposed to protect and the majority protected and served (sure, to varying degrees) without asking for payment. Although in some places inspectors may have been bribed, it wasn't the norm and they also did not earn a majority of their money from bribes and those who sought bribes were few and far between. I knew many people who had stores and other "public" businesses (such as construction companies, for example) and bribery was not the norm.

I managed construction sites in the late 80s, big ones. We had various kinds of inspectors that came out to inspect us and never had to offer a bribe to get past something. I was never asked by my boss to offer a bribe. My boss never offered a bribe, to my knowledge. We actually fixed whatever legitimate issue the inspectors found and went on about our business, which was good for us and the client.

And so on.

Here, everyone I know who has a business that has a public face (stores, bars, etc) and makes a bit of money, deals with corruption on a daily basis.

To say that Argentina is no more corrupt than the US is comparing apples to oranges. The corruption in the US is (was?) less damaging to people who want to open a business and have success (as an example), although the government control in the US is becoming as stifling as the corruption and government here together, I'll give you that. It's not a daily, individual corruption, but rather a natural consequence of centralized power in a government, aided, as usual, by people who think they know what's best for everyone else. But even as of today, because there is not such rampant personal corruption, it's still easier to do business in the US by a large degree, although I see that changing year-by-year.

Also, you made a comment about how bribes are offered, and I think you are fairly correct in that. I had a situation during my residency process some years ago that held up my approval for more than a year. My lawyer told me he thought we would have to pay a bribe to the judge (he suggested that I may have to buy a $1000 peso gift certificate from Falabella in the days when the Peso was 3-1 to the Dollar). He managed to work the issue out over the year's time. But had he been forced to go the bribe route, he was definitely going to have to offer the bribe to the judge - the judge would never have asked for it as I understood from my lawyer.

Others I've seen give bribes are always the ones to suggest it, never, ever the official.

The only bribe I've actually given in Buenos Aires, personally, was to a motorcycle cop who had his bike parked on the side of Cordoba during rush hour. I was somewhere near Uriburu if I remember correctly, where Cordoba makes its first big bend after Cerrito / 9 de julio. Traffic was at a near standstill and I received a call on my cellphone. I answered it and in the course of the conversation (it was my wife), I inched up close to the cop who was standing there watching traffic. When he saw me talking on my cellphone, he walked up to my car and pointed to my phone. I knew I was probably in trouble (this was when they were actually enforcing the new law about not talking on the cellphone while driving). I said goodbye to my wife and put the phone down. He proceeded to tell me that he was going to have to impound my car because I was talking on my cellphone. I was a bit worried because I had heard you couldn't bribe PFA here. This was some 7 years ago or so and I was still a bit naive about life here. But I'd had experience in Paraguay with police and decided to try to offer the cop here something. So I asked him if there wasn't any other way to deal with the problem than getting my car impounded. He asked me what I had in mind. I told him I had two hundred peso notes in my wallet that I didn't need and he told me that would be acceptable, that he would accept that as a "multa". When I pulled the bills out of my wallet he opened the palms of his hands down toward the ground and made a pushing motion, as if telling me to keep it down. He asked me to wrap the bills in a piece of paper or something and hand it to him in a casual manner. Once he had the package in his hand (I had a plastic bag in my car I used), he smiled and waved me on my way.

I would have never tried this in the US.

I don't own a business here with a public face, which is why this is the only bribe I've personally given. I have a number of friends who own businesses of different types and I have actually been present when pre-arranged bribes ("payments") have been handed over and have heard about many, many other situations.
ElQueso, nice for you to be able to workout a deal with the Moto traffic cop on the scene. Now reading your step by step how you went on in resolving the situation with the cop. Now can you eloquently tell how all these difficult manifestation developed in "Castellano Argentino"?..You must be very advanced in Castellano or you come from Latino family backgorund and already speking the lingo 'cause for me if were in your situation,the proficiency of my Castellano will never have resolved confronted incident. It has to be very agonising for me in convincing the cop to let me go without paying the ticket. Short doctrine of your skilful Argie castellano simulation would be very much appretiated and it is not making pun of your nice writing despite..
 
Ah señor Embassador que voy a hacer contigo? :)

First, I learned Spanish in high school some 30+ years ago. I took two years in high school and then switched to Latin for two years, which I continued for another two years in college. At the time, I also worked as a construction laborer in Texas, where 90%+ of the laborers at the time were from Mexico, which helped me reinforce what little Spanish I had actually learned in high school. But I got out of construction (as a laborer, anyway) by the time I was 21 or so and thus ended my Spanish lessons :) When I came here some 9 years ago, I only remembered a smattering of what I'd learned 25 or so years in the past. In fact, when I first met my wife, we conversed mostly via Google translations to have any meaningful conversations! (we talked a lot in generalities and and such without need to translate) But nearly 9 years of living with her, and then her sisters, I have become fairly accomplished in the language.

My ancestry is very strongly Scotch-Irish with a bit of German thrown in - I couldn't pass as a Latino if I had a summer-long beach tan :) This, from my girls who laugh when I say, but there are many European-descended people here, I couldn't pass as one of them? The answer is a resounding "no". Hehe.

I suppose the exchange with the cop went something like this (remember, it's been some 6 or 7 years since this happened, I don't remember the details but the generalities are correct):

"Usted sabe que no se puede usar el celular mientras que manejas?"

"Le pido disculpas señor. Era mi esposa quien me llamó y tenía el miedo que algo malo le había sucedido." (hey, it was the only possible excuse I could think of!)

"Si usted pensó que era un problema cuando llegó la llamada, usted debería haber estacionado en ese momento para recibirla. No le puedo disculpar la ofensa. Me parece que voy a tener que llevar su auto para la ofensa señor. Por favor, salí del auto y voy a llamar una grua."

I sat there for a couple of seconds, thinking fast.

"Señor, no hay otra manera en que podemos solucionar la situación?"

He looked at me for a moment.

"Qué propones?"

"Yo propongo que le pago la multa a usted directamente y evitamos el problema de involucrar todas las demás. Tengo dos billetes de cien en mi billetera para solucionar el problema."

He thought about it.

"Bueno esta bien. Metélos en un papel o algo y pasámelos."

It was literally that quick. I didn't have to argue with him or anything.

And those who read this, excuse my Spanish - I don't often write Spanish (indeed, when I have to send an email or something I usually get one of my girls to proof-read, but no one is here right now :) ) and I haven't had formal instruction in the language since 1979 :)

Having said all that, I was desperate to not have my car impounded. I really don't suggest that people try to bribe officials here, particularly if one doesn't know the language very well. I was probably lucky that my actions didn't get me in real hot water. Had the officer only written me a ticket, I would have accepted the ticket and not tried to bribe him. I don't know how often they actually would have impounded the car in a situation like mine, but I do know that I saw people getting towed on the spot when the government changed Santa Fe, Puerrydon and Las Heras to have the restricted bus/taxi lanes during the day, for about a month or so after they changed it up when people ignored the signs and drove their cars there anyway (of course, they don't seem to enforce that any more). But those were the newer city transit cops that were handling that. It seemed like the PFA officer that talked to me was looking for something.

I also suggest that one act with complete respect, no matter what an official has to say to you or no matter what he or she ends up doing. Don't get on any kind of self-righteous crusade to show that you "know" how things should be. While Dr. Rubilar is an attorney and knows the ins and outs of the law and how to handle corrupt officials, finding oneself in a jail for a night or two (most likely in the case of a cop, not an official in immigrations as an example, although the latter has its own set of consequences) because one was naively trying to stand on rights does not usually end with a good series of events, I can guarantee.

I don't suggest that people lay down and take it up the a__s either, but think real hard about what you are doing and the possible consequences before you act, remembering that things are very hierarchical here in terms of power structure and those on the bottom rungs seem to seek out ways to screw with those who come to them - just because they can.

Bajo, I appreciate what you say about official misconduct and how it should be handled. But you have to see it from a foreigner's viewpoint - unless we hire a good lawyer to help us out, many of us don't understand the law completely and are often faced with hard decisions. and most of us don't have the time or inclination to fight constantly issues with Argentina itself. It is the culture of Argentina, not the US, and we aren't the ones who should be changing the hearts and minds of Argentinos to become less corrupt. While such corruption exists on such a scale, it is often safer for us to go with the flow, as much as we hate it, as we are often targets in this society when we raise our heads. This is not necessarily fear talking, but rather pragmatism.

I remember back in the mid-90s when I was working for an offshore drilling company, I was about to go to Nigeria for business. Before I was due to leave, we had an IT emergency in Angola and I diverted there instead. I was, by coincidence, going to be traveling to Nigeria with one of our auditors who had gone there about 6 months earlier to audit the area office in Nigeria. It was a policy of our company that we didn't pay bribes to get business done and the auditor had gigged the Nigerian office for a number of bribery payments over the previous year. The area manger quit making bribes and business slowed down to a crawl. The horrible/funny thing was that when the auditor arrived in Nigeria (on the trip I was supposed to be on!), he was thrown in jail with two others from the company that had also traveled with him, for a week, straight from immigrations at the airport. The area manger laughed his ass off when he went to bribe the officials to get the auditor and the other two out of jail.

I suppose the area manager could have left the three in jail for a month or two (or more?) while they went about trying to get justice in Nigeria, but the auditor was very thankful that the manager only laughed about the previous audit and didn't leave him in there while he sought justice.

I would not equate Argentina with Nigeria, as far as how extremely corrupt is Nigeria compared to Argentina. But the situation is similar as far as trying, as a foreigner, to fight corruption here. The only alternative is to leave the country, but it has been my experience that one must simply accept a culture as it is, without trying to change it, and enjoy that which is enjoyable and tolerate and/or work within how things are done in that particular culture. It is up to the culture itself to change from within.
 
Total tax rate (% of commercial profits) is only 137% in AR. What is a person to do: lie, cheat, bribe, kickback....
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.TAX.TOTL.CP.ZS
 
Total tax rate (% of commercial profits) is only 137% in AR. What is a person to do: lie, cheat, bribe, kickback....
http://data.worldban....TAX.TOTL.CP.ZS

LOL Every time I think I have finally heard the absolute bottom of something stupid from Argentina someone digs up something even more insane and stupid than that. Argentina the country with over 100% taxes and in fact the only one in the list.
 
I suppose the exchange with the cop went something like this (remember, it's been some 6 or 7 years since this happened, I don't remember the details but the generalities are correct):

"Usted sabe que no se puede usar el celular mientras que manejas?"

"Le pido disculpas señor. Era mi esposa quien me llamó y tenía el miedo que algo malo le había sucedido." (hey, it was the only possible excuse I could think of!)

"Si usted pensó que era un problema cuando llegó la llamada, usted debería haber estacionado en ese momento para recibirla. No le puedo disculpar la ofensa. Me parece que voy a tener que llevar su auto para la ofensa señor. Por favor, salí del auto y voy a llamar una grua."

I sat there for a couple of seconds, thinking fast.

"Señor, no hay otra manera en que podemos solucionar la situación?"

He looked at me for a moment.

"Qué propones?"

"Yo propongo que le pago la multa a usted directamente y evitamos el problema de involucrar todas las demás. Tengo dos billetes de cien en mi billetera para solucionar el problema."

He thought about it.

"Bueno esta bien. Metélos en un papel o algo y pasámelos."

It was literally that quick. I didn't have to argue with him or anything.

And those who read this, excuse my Spanish - I don't often write Spanish (indeed, when I have to send an email or something I usually get one of my girls to proof-read, but no one is here right now :) ) and I haven't had formal instruction in the language since 1979 :)

=====================================================================================================


ElQueso, pardon my continuous inquiries to your always excellent writings on this forum.. The above translation of yourself and the cop as in mentioned epilogue is astounding to read but at the same time very entairtaining!

Still amazed at your Argentine Spanish manoeuvring skill, it is prodigious ! My hat is off to you Sire!

I spent quite afew years in Spain as planted by the company back in the 70~80. When the company Engineers were all going to the academia Espanyola for acquiring the then necessary idiom in order to comunicate with the Ibericos technicians, I was kicking the cans down the streets then meeting local chicas whom thought me the, how to use the Lenguas in a different ways sans the schooling !

Even most of time concider myself pretty good in comunicating in such lingo, don't think that even coming closer to your prowesses in manupulating the Moto Cop to your benefit!.. I definitely have to come knocking your doors for begging to your Argentinos Spanish lessons...Keep up your most excellent writing in here despite always critiqued, Lo haces muy largo !
 
Ah señor Embassador que voy a hacer contigo? :)

First, I learned Spanish in high school some 30+ years ago. I took two years in high school and then switched to Latin for two years, which I continued for another two years in college. At the time, I also worked as a construction laborer in Texas, where 90%+ of the laborers at the time were from Mexico, which helped me reinforce what little Spanish I had actually learned in high school. But I got out of construction (as a laborer, anyway) by the time I was 21 or so and thus ended my Spanish lessons :) When I came here some 9 years ago, I only remembered a smattering of what I'd learned 25 or so years in the past. In fact, when I first met my wife, we conversed mostly via Google translations to have any meaningful conversations! (we talked a lot in generalities and and such without need to translate) But nearly 9 years of living with her, and then her sisters, I have become fairly accomplished in the language.

My ancestry is very strongly Scotch-Irish with a bit of German thrown in - I couldn't pass as a Latino if I had a summer-long beach tan :) This, from my girls who laugh when I say, but there are many European-descended people here, I couldn't pass as one of them? The answer is a resounding "no". Hehe.

I suppose the exchange with the cop went something like this (remember, it's been some 6 or 7 years since this happened, I don't remember the details but the generalities are correct):

"Usted sabe que no se puede usar el celular mientras que manejas?"

"Le pido disculpas señor. Era mi esposa quien me llamó y tenía el miedo que algo malo le había sucedido." (hey, it was the only possible excuse I could think of!)

"Si usted pensó que era un problema cuando llegó la llamada, usted debería haber estacionado en ese momento para recibirla. No le puedo disculpar la ofensa. Me parece que voy a tener que llevar su auto para la ofensa señor. Por favor, salí del auto y voy a llamar una grua."

I sat there for a couple of seconds, thinking fast.

"Señor, no hay otra manera en que podemos solucionar la situación?"

He looked at me for a moment.

"Qué propones?"

"Yo propongo que le pago la multa a usted directamente y evitamos el problema de involucrar todas las demás. Tengo dos billetes de cien en mi billetera para solucionar el problema."

He thought about it.

"Bueno esta bien. Metélos en un papel o algo y pasámelos."

It was literally that quick. I didn't have to argue with him or anything.

And those who read this, excuse my Spanish - I don't often write Spanish (indeed, when I have to send an email or something I usually get one of my girls to proof-read, but no one is here right now :) ) and I haven't had formal instruction in the language since 1979 :)

Having said all that, I was desperate to not have my car impounded. I really don't suggest that people try to bribe officials here, particularly if one doesn't know the language very well. I was probably lucky that my actions didn't get me in real hot water. Had the officer only written me a ticket, I would have accepted the ticket and not tried to bribe him. I don't know how often they actually would have impounded the car in a situation like mine, but I do know that I saw people getting towed on the spot when the government changed Santa Fe, Puerrydon and Las Heras to have the restricted bus/taxi lanes during the day, for about a month or so after they changed it up when people ignored the signs and drove their cars there anyway (of course, they don't seem to enforce that any more). But those were the newer city transit cops that were handling that. It seemed like the PFA officer that talked to me was looking for something.

I also suggest that one act with complete respect, no matter what an official has to say to you or no matter what he or she ends up doing. Don't get on any kind of self-righteous crusade to show that you "know" how things should be. While Dr. Rubilar is an attorney and knows the ins and outs of the law and how to handle corrupt officials, finding oneself in a jail for a night or two (most likely in the case of a cop, not an official in immigrations as an example, although the latter has its own set of consequences) because one was naively trying to stand on rights does not usually end with a good series of events, I can guarantee.

I don't suggest that people lay down and take it up the a__s either, but think real hard about what you are doing and the possible consequences before you act, remembering that things are very hierarchical here in terms of power structure and those on the bottom rungs seem to seek out ways to screw with those who come to them - just because they can.

Bajo, I appreciate what you say about official misconduct and how it should be handled. But you have to see it from a foreigner's viewpoint - unless we hire a good lawyer to help us out, many of us don't understand the law completely and are often faced with hard decisions. and most of us don't have the time or inclination to fight constantly issues with Argentina itself. It is the culture of Argentina, not the US, and we aren't the ones who should be changing the hearts and minds of Argentinos to become less corrupt. While such corruption exists on such a scale, it is often safer for us to go with the flow, as much as we hate it, as we are often targets in this society when we raise our heads. This is not necessarily fear talking, but rather pragmatism.

I remember back in the mid-90s when I was working for an offshore drilling company, I was about to go to Nigeria for business. Before I was due to leave, we had an IT emergency in Angola and I diverted there instead. I was, by coincidence, going to be traveling to Nigeria with one of our auditors who had gone there about 6 months earlier to audit the area office in Nigeria. It was a policy of our company that we didn't pay bribes to get business done and the auditor had gigged the Nigerian office for a number of bribery payments over the previous year. The area manger quit making bribes and business slowed down to a crawl. The horrible/funny thing was that when the auditor arrived in Nigeria (on the trip I was supposed to be on!), he was thrown in jail with two others from the company that had also traveled with him, for a week, straight from immigrations at the airport. The area manger laughed his ass off when he went to bribe the officials to get the auditor and the other two out of jail.

I suppose the area manager could have left the three in jail for a month or two (or more?) while they went about trying to get justice in Nigeria, but the auditor was very thankful that the manager only laughed about the previous audit and didn't leave him in there while he sought justice.

I would not equate Argentina with Nigeria, as far as how extremely corrupt is Nigeria compared to Argentina. But the situation is similar as far as trying, as a foreigner, to fight corruption here. The only alternative is to leave the country, but it has been my experience that one must simply accept a culture as it is, without trying to change it, and enjoy that which is enjoyable and tolerate and/or work within how things are done in that particular culture. It is up to the culture itself to change from within.

How did life Argentina get you to the place that you would fall to this level?
 
Total tax rate (% of commercial profits) is only 137% in AR. What is a person to do: lie, cheat, bribe, kickback....
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.TAX.TOTL.CP.ZS
This is a country that truly believes that business is the enemy and must be punished at every turn.
 
Back
Top