Chavez wins elections, we are screwed!

[Matt84]

Interesting to note that both Lilita and Lanata share some extra layers of confidence that other candidates simply lack

 

[muddy_helmet]

Furthermore, I am convinced that if it was a free and fair election, he would not have won. Nobody could live under such crime and economic malaise and not hold the ruler of 14 years accountable.

Not only did he win by ten points, but he did so alongside the monitoring agency considered to be the international gold standard-- the Carter Center. Ex-president and Nobel Laureate Jimmy Carter said on a previous occasion: "Of the 92 elections we've supervised, Venezuela has the most democratic and free voting process in the world". The Carter Center affirmed that everything was in order for this election, as have other international monitoring agencies. To put it more simply, it would be impossible to put a more reputable seal of honesty on this election *because the most reputable agencies in the world/region have already done so.*

 

[Dipoots]

...Nobody could live under such crime and economic malaise and not hold the ruler of 14 years accountable.

Disagree with you respectfully.

The poor and Chavez-Cronies would... those that would need (the poor) or rather have (the cronies) a handout without working for it; the poor (no choice, cannot see beyond next meal), the cronies (no talent other than being a crony). Who is John Galt.

 

[pauper]

When was Lanata ever a candidate and when was Lilita ever sane?

 

[jp]

@JP Had you left my quote intact, other users would see that I finish that sentence asking for evidence that Chavez MIGHT be a dictator (thus clarifying that I only have my gut feelings, and history of living in Third World countries and seeing how easily is the population controlled).

Apologies, didn't mean to misrepresent you or single you out. Just quoted it because its an accusation that surfaces regularly, despite Chavez being in power based on the will of a majority.

No one denies South Africa is Democratic. Now is this, in face of the facts, a good thing? Can I even ask this question?

Yes, because apartheid was an abomination and needed to end. The fact that a huge power shift brought social upheaval and instability isn't proof it shouldn't have happened. Short term South Africa will take a long time to adjust, long term it has a stable future. Same goes for slavery if you want to go back a little further to something even uglier. Emancipation lead to massive social upheaval the repurcussions of which are still being felt. Doesn't mean that it didn't urgently need to happen though.

Rebalancing Venezuela was always going to result in chaos, catastrophe and a plummeting standard of living for some. But its also resulted in an incomparably better standard of living for others. Not saying Chavez has the balance right by a long way, but I don't understand why his achievements are ignored.

 

[Matt84]

JP, Far from ignoring Chavez's achievements I'm taking them to the same level as Mandela's! !!!.

Or down to his level, for his few, unpopular, semi legal detractors,

He destroyed America's third Oil Strategic Partner (after Canada and Mexico) in favor of Asian countries after the USA saved Venezuela from a Belgian invasion in 1909 invoking the Monroe Doctrine.
He replaced the elite created by this partnership with a state sponsored nomenclatura and has the privilege of being the first country in the continental Americas to establish strategic ties with the Middle East and convert a Native American tribe (Guajira) to Islam. Way to Go!
Venezuelans play baseball and consume more Coca Cola per capita than any other nation. In the Northern Hemisphere just the south coast of the Caribbean, North America's Mediterranean, Venezuela used to have good ties with the US. A real Social Democrat strongman would have taxed the oil without nationalizing it, fuel it to proper education not propaganda, and healthcare (again not Cuban propaganda), and much like Colombia and Panama, envision a bright future for their country, in official partnership with their de facto North American partners.


My own standing is the following:
Righting a wrong, usually with violence or giving way to violence, might be inevitable, and even just, but it is by n means a rose garden, and there is a point where the natural law of paradox sets the balance and you see black people in Johannesburg telling that back in abominable 'white' South Africa, ALL South Africans had a job guaranteed (of course this is the same Russians would tell you, proving once again that Nationalism and Socialism are essentially the same thing, despite the heroic 50 million toll War that was fought to separate those two inextricably linked concepts)

In any case you brought up slavery. Lars von Trier who, much like Kant, has never been to America due to phobias, portrays the issue ending slavery in 'Manderlay' a very uplifting sequel to Dogville.

If you want an example where race is out of the question, you may compare the fate of the cities of Kaliningrad (ex Königsberg), Dresden, and Hamburg (or any other West German city) after each was forced into a different sphere of Control (Soviet Incorporation in the first, the most advanced Socialist Republic in the second, and American influenced in the third)

btw/I know Lanata's not a candidate, I was just playing along; and the only reason Lilita might be insane seems to be because she tries to lead an honest principled campaign in Argentina, which yes it cause for institutionalization.

 

[scotttswan]

Anyone think Chavez will seriously survive 6 years?

Now the elections are over he'll probably have even more chemo to go through.

A successor from his party will probably be introduced now for when he finally does go.

 

[Quantum Sparkplug]

You know, I don't like the man at all, or his policies. He's an extremely disruptive and polarizing figure. In many countries there are politicians like himself too and we can rightly have an opinion one way or the other about them.

What I didn't like was his blatant manipulation of the apparatus of state to win the election: refusing virtually all opposition political broadcasts to 3 minutes only a day, shutting down opposition media, preventing the opposition candidate from campaigning, scaring people in to voting him especially after the debacle of releasing the names of people who voted against him in a referendum.

Whatever his personal convictions are for his supposed Bolivarian Revolution, abusing his position like he did makes him unfit for rule.

I feel very sorry for my Venezuelan friends tonight

Can you back up your claims about total govt media control? May I add a caveat? If the anti-Chavez corporate media was a FOX network-like entity that relied on lies and exaggeration, would it be irresponsible or completely responsible to shut them down? I would be delighted if all corporate AND govt media in North America bit the dust (including and especially NPR), in favour of grass roots subscriber funded media.

 

[Conorworld]

Not only did he win by ten points, but he did so alongside the monitoring agency considered to be the international gold standard-- the Carter Center. Ex-president and Nobel Laureate Jimmy Carter said on a previous occasion: "Of the 92 elections we've supervised, Venezuela has the most democratic and free voting process in the world". The Carter Center affirmed that everything was in order for this election, as have other international monitoring agencies. To put it more simply, it would be impossible to put a more reputable seal of honesty on this election *because the most reputable agencies in the world/region have already done so.*

I have no doubt that the voting machines and basic process of pushing the button on the day are fair. My statement was about how lopsided everything else was - lack of equal access to state media for an example. We see now in the United States about Romney and Obama trying to out fundraise each other to spend on media. Just think that it would be like if say Obama took over all the stations and refused to allow Romney any ads bar 3 minutes a day? How skewed would the election result be? That's my point.

 

[Conorworld]

Can you back up your claims about total govt media control? May I add a caveat? If the anti-Chavez corporate media was a FOX network-like entity that relied on lies and exaggeration, would it be irresponsible or completely responsible to shut them down? I would be delighted if all corporate AND govt media in North America bit the dust (including and especially NPR), in favour of grass roots subscriber funded media.

One just has to look up Google News and see the litany of articles on Chavez shutting down opposition media.

I despise Fox News and its manipulation of facts at times. It's nasty at times but I don't think it should be shut down. Media should be free. People should have the right to access the media, all media, regardless of if you think it is good or bad. The same should be for Venezuela and all other nations.