Crazy Low Flying Argentinians

[Matiasba]

This is one of the things I like the most of this government: caring nothing about weapons, about any posibility of war, about any posibility of killing people. I like they dont care at all, why? I think they have strong beliefs in peace and regional integration.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

This is one of the things I like the most of this government: caring nothing about weapons, about any posibility of war, about any posibility of killing people. I like they dont care at all, why? I think they have strong beliefs in peace and regional integration.

Como? You like that they don't care about weapons so much they just spent millions of dollars on obsolete warplanes? If they didn't care, why did the buy them at all?

 

[Matiasba]

Como? You like that they don't care about weapons so much they just spent millions of dollars on obsolete warplanes? If they didn't care, why did the buy them at all?

I knew somebody would come with this question.
Today, it is very difficult to be outside the war bussiness as a state, Even Uruguay, the most peaceful country on earth, has bought weapons!!
So if you re a State and you have a strong peaceful belief, what you do is invest a very low budget in arms, but not nothing, since every country has a sector of crazy milicos that pushes every time to buy this stuff.

 

[camberiu]

I knew somebody would come with this question.
Today, it is very difficult to be outside the war bussiness as a state, Even Uruguay, the most peaceful country on earth, has bought weapons!!
So if you re a State and you have a strong peaceful belief, what you do is invest a very low budget in arms, but not nothing, since every country has a sector of crazy milicos that pushes every time to buy this stuff.

Hmmmm......

Costa Rica has completely disbanded its armed forces.
New Zealand, who is much wealthier and prosperous than Argentina, has no combat aircraft whatsoever.
I don't hear many Argentinians clamoring for a modern air force. With the "para todos" policy, Cristian could easily let the air force die.

I don;t buy your explanation.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

I knew somebody would come with this question.
Today, it is very difficult to be outside the war bussiness as a state, Even Uruguay, the most peaceful country on earth, has bought weapons!!
So if you re a State and you have a strong peaceful belief, what you do is invest a very low budget in arms, but not nothing, since every country has a sector of crazy milicos that pushes every time to buy this stuff.

That is quite frankly nonsense. Outside of the war business as a state doesn't actually mean anything, translated in any language. It is an empty platitude. So, in your view they bought something completely useless to placate "milicos"...who are they exactly? The militant wing of campora?

Typical of this government. Neither here nor there, not able to invest correctly nor take the decision not to invest when it is appropriate and only capable of meaningless sleight of hand to fool the gullible.

 

[camberiu]

Even Uruguay, the most peaceful country on earth, has bought weapons!!

Indeed. Now, here is the interesting part:
Uruguay share borders with only two countries, Brazil and Argentina. Considering that the maintenance contract for the Uruguayan's F-5 Tiger 3s went to EMBRAER, I wonder who they had in mind when they bought those war planes

 

[jackbower]

I understand the status argument. I just find it completely laughable. Either save your money or spend a little more and have a real airforce not some rag tag puddle jumper squadron. But maybe the government doesnt really care about having a strong airforce. I can respect that.

As far as Brazil, nobody really knows what they will do. They might still go through with the deal. I believe the Rafales were too expensive so their only other option would be the Gripen. I honestly doubt they will choose either if they dont purchase the f18s. They should just sign up with India and Russia and wait for the PAKFA.

If the goal is to simply maintain the status of having a "super sonic" air force and nothing else, the F1s make perfect sense. For a few hundred million dollars you get 20 planes, all the tooling, manuals and supplements that the Spanish Air force has and you are done. If you buy MIGs and Chinese fighters, you have to pay for the price of the planes plus extra for the maintenance contract, completely new tools and supplements that are entirely different from the western standards that Argentina has used so far. So, it is much more expensive.
I don't think the ultimate goal is to have a truly combat capable air force. The goal is to simply maintain some type of status. Remember that Argentina was the first country in Latin America to have combat jets and to have super sonic planes. But the MIRAGE III, which were the first super sonic planes used south of the Rio Grande, are just too old to fly. If they are retired without replacement, Argentina's air force will be at the same technological level as the Paraguayan or Bolivian air forces, which for some is unacceptable. So, to maintain an illusion of progress, you buy a bunch of old F1s from Spain which can be used to fly during national dates and that is it.

Fianlly, after the NSA scandal, I very much doubt Brazil will buy the F-18E Super Hornet, which used to be a certain deal. The race now is between the French Rafale and the Swedish Gripen NG.

 

[camberiu]

I understand the status argument. I just find it completely laughable. Either save your money or spend a little more and have a real airforce not some rag tag puddle jumper squadron.

I am with you, but that is very typical of Latin America (not just Argentina).

As far as Brazil, nobody really knows what they will do. They might still go through with the deal. I believe the Rafales were too expensive so their only other option would be the Gripen. I honestly doubt they will choose either if they dont purchase the f18s. They should just sign up with India and Russia and wait for the PAKFA.

That is true, nobody knows for sure. But the MIRAGE 2000s will be retired by December 31st 2013, no matter what. Brazil has a good number of American made F-5 Tiger IIs that have been extensively modernized by EMBRAER, and they are still very useful. But they are no match for Venezuela's SU-30s, which is a major concern for the air force. So a replacement will need to be found.
Also, there is a lot of resistance within the Brazilian air force towards the SU-30. They love the performance of the aircraft, but it is a logistical nightmare. Nothing on that plane meets western specs. The fuel it needs is different. The hydraulic fluids are different, the paint is different, the lubricants are different, the fuses are different. Even the tools to do basic maintenance are completely different. So, you'd need to have a completely different and parallel logistics chain to maintain the plane. Meanwhile in western planes, all the basics are standardized. The F-18, The Gripen, the Rafale and even the F-5 all use the same type of fuel, same fluids, same lubricants and same basic tooling. So it makes the operation and maintenance much easier, cheaper and simpler. That is why I don't think a Russian plane will happen. My bet is on the Gripen NG or at minimim, stop gap plane, like a used F-16D (like Chile did).

 

[Matiasba]

Hmmmm......

Costa Rica has completely disbanded its armed forces.
New Zealand, who is much wealthier and prosperous than Argentina, has no combat aircraft whatsoever.
I don't hear many Argentinians clamoring for a modern air force. With the "para todos" policy, Cristian could easily let the air force die.

I don;t buy your explanation.

What I said is that they almost no buy weapons due their beliefs in peace and regional integration. Maybe thats the reason why New Zealand doesnt invest in air force (protected by Australia & the US? I dont know about this but I think its like this).
Anyway, Argentina has a tradition of Air Force as you said, maybe thats why isnt so easy to finish it. (besides the lobby that producers countries do)

 

[Matiasba]

That is quite frankly nonsense. Outside of the war business as a state doesn't actually mean anything, translated in any language. It is an empty platitude. So, in your view they bought something completely useless to placate "milicos"...who are they exactly? The militant wing of campora?

Typical of this government. Neither here nor there, not able to invest correctly nor take the decision not to invest when it is appropriate and only capable of meaningless sleight of hand to fool the gullible.

Argentina has its milicos here, remember only 30 years ago we were a totally militarized society, there were a lot of people who worked linked with them. during all the XXth century militars had the control of the country, the FFAA corporation was inmense. They were disbanded in the 90s, almost nothing ago, and while they dont have political power anymore, the re still are people linked with that that demand more money for the militars.