Hello! ...and a thousand questions about moving to BA

[Guillo]

On what Bep said, I do not agree with the medical insurance and I do not agree with the job sites for a high end IT professional. I think a high end programmer can make around 20000 pesos ( 5000 usd ) net ( I don´t think it will be impossible to support a family of 11, but it will be tight.

20k / month? Not likely, only very few go as high as that. For a programmer, average should be around 6k (net) pesos a month. You would probably do better on other roles, unless you are very experienced in some particular tech or domain (say, iOS or perhaps a particular module on SAP).

About cost of living, for the size of your family you can try going for the "Gran Buenos Aires" area, the outskirts. You could probably rent a house with a big yard for the same amount expats pay for a small studio apartment in the top areas of the town. You would also need to commute for an hour or more every day, and it wouldn't be as safe as it is on the best neighborhoods you usually see quoted on this forum.
And of course, you would need some kind of "Garantía" (someone's property as a collateral) to get a any long term rent contract.

Probably going to another parts of the country (not Buenos Aires) would be much better for what you want/expect, but then, landing a well paid IT job outside of BA is something really hard to accomplish.

Good luck!

 

[syngirl]

One option is that I could continue my software consulting business and continue to work for US companies remotely from home in BA. I'd likely make around half what I'm getting now. But what I'm getting now is very good even by US standards.

Ok so take that half, and half it again. Or half it until you end up at about 3 - 5000k USD.

I speak pretty good french and japanese, and I can speak some spanish now. I expect that I'd be fluent in 6 months. My wife would take considerably longer to learn spanish. But she stays home with the kids now and would likely continue that.

Sorry, but I've been here 5+ years, and I have heard the "fluent in 6 months" thing over and over and over again. It doesn't happen -- especially if you're trying to work at the same time. To be fluent in six months you would have to quit work and remove yourself from all english speakers and english television, newspapers etc etc and ONLY talk to spanish speakers. IE quit your job and move out of your house and never call family.

Can anyone give me an idea what a high-end programming job would be likely to pay in BA and what renting a house would likely cost?

No idea about the job. Renting a house for 9 people would be around $4000 (US$1250) a month.

That's if you're renting WAY out in the burbs -- in places like martinez which is the burbs but convenient train access to town, you're still looking at well over that for a house for that many people (I'm thinking 4 bedrooms minimum since that would be one for the parents and 3 kids per room otherwise). In Capital federal, forget about it, it's hard enough finding a big apartment, I can't imagine how much you'd have to spend (think more like 3000 USD -- 12000 pesos, there goes your salary...)

And if you're out in the burbs you'll have to get at least one car (or I guess a minivan -- note: they don't sell the same range of big models of trucks/vans as you get in the states, so you're options are going to be limited -- and cars/trucks etc are very expensive compared to their US counterparts.

What is the health insurance situation there?
If you go to a hospital is free. Otherwise you can hire a pre-paid medical service, but they are expensive and not really worthy , except you have a big accident.

Any Argentine I know that has even a little bit of money gets onto a private plan ASAP -- and the farther you are outside of Capital the worse the situation gets. There are good public institutes, but I personally would not want my kids to have to go to them if I had another option.


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Nikad is right, think 20000 pesos ($5k usd) a month IF you're in a managerial position. You will be so much better off if you could come down on transfer. I have friends who have worked (as locals) for NEC, IBM, and Google, and the salaries for locals aren't anywhere near what they'd be earning were they in the states. IBM programmers here make as little as 3500 pesos (900 USD) a month, but those are the young guys, so IF you could get in at a top level you'd be ok -- EXCEPT that that salary has to feed 11 people -- I'm assuming that you are a single income household? Or would someone else be working as well?


TAXES:

If you come down and you're registered legally you're looking at about 30% off your paycheck to pension, taxes etc. Argentina is one of the hgher taxing nations in the region.


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Despite higher taxes, you may want to look at Chile instead -- the cost of living is not that much higher than Buenos Aires, but the salaries are MUCH higher -- ie instead of making say, 10000 pesos a month, you can make 8000 USD etc. Cars are much cheaper, as are electronics. The bad thing is that schools are much, much more expensive (whereas here you're looking at 1500 pesos (min) for a child to go to a half decent place, you're looking at 1500 USD to go to a half decent school that is bilingual) -- oh, and that's per month.

 

[blanning]

Ok so take that half, and half it again. Or half it until you end up at about 3 - 5000k USD.

What I meant is that a US company would pay me half for working remotely as compared to what they would pay if I showed up in person.

Sorry, but I've been here 5+ years, and I have heard the "fluent in 6 months" thing over and over and over again. It doesn't happen -- especially if you're trying to work at the same time. To be fluent in six months you would have to quit work and remove yourself from all english speakers and english television, newspapers etc etc and ONLY talk to spanish speakers. IE quit your job and move out of your house and never call family.

I can already speak a fair amount of spanish, but I'm nowhere near fluent. I can also understand a lot more than I can speak because of the french. About half the time, I can guess the right verb in spanish, but I can't conjugate it. So I'm definitely not starting from scratch.

That's if you're renting WAY out in the burbs -- in places like martinez which is the burbs but convenient train access to town, you're still looking at well over that for a house for that many people (I'm thinking 4 bedrooms minimum since that would be one for the parents and 3 kids per room otherwise). In Capital federal, forget about it, it's hard enough finding a big apartment, I can't imagine how much you'd have to spend (think more like 3000 USD -- 12000 pesos, there goes your salary...)

We'd probably have to do the suburb thing. 4 bedrooms would work fine.

And if you're out in the burbs you'll have to get at least one car (or I guess a minivan -- note: they don't sell the same range of big models of trucks/vans as you get in the states, so you're options are going to be limited -- and cars/trucks etc are very expensive compared to their US counterparts.

I'm aware of the car choice situation. We have problems with that now, and gave up trying to carry everyone in the car at once a long time ago.

Any Argentine I know that has even a little bit of money gets onto a private plan ASAP -- and the farther you are outside of Capital the worse the situation gets. There are good public institutes, but I personally would not want my kids to have to go to them if I had another option.

This is the sort of info I'm after. Vietnam is much the same way. There's the public option, and then there's private for people with money. We were mistakenly taken to the public hospital when we were working in our adoption. They were doing dental work in the waiting room. Later, we ended up being taken to the hospital for foreigners. It was night and day different.

Nikad is right, think 20000 pesos ($5k usd) a month IF you're in a managerial position. You will be so much better off if you could come down on transfer. I have friends who have worked (as locals) for NEC, IBM, and Google, and the salaries for locals aren't anywhere near what they'd be earning were they in the states. IBM programmers here make as little as 3500 pesos (900 USD) a month, but those are the young guys, so IF you could get in at a top level you'd be ok -- EXCEPT that that salary has to feed 11 people -- I'm assuming that you are a single income household? Or would someone else be working as well?

I'm definitely at the top of the food chain. But that means more like a lead engineer/architect type thing rather than a managerial role that most people think of.

My wife doesn't work, although she might be able to.

If you come down and you're registered legally you're looking at about 30% off your paycheck to pension, taxes etc. Argentina is one of the hgher taxing nations in the region.

Despite higher taxes, you may want to look at Chile instead -- the cost of living is not that much higher than Buenos Aires, but the salaries are MUCH higher -- ie instead of making say, 10000 pesos a month, you can make 8000 USD etc. Cars are much cheaper, as are electronics. The bad thing is that schools are much, much more expensive (whereas here you're looking at 1500 pesos (min) for a child to go to a half decent place, you're looking at 1500 USD to go to a half decent school that is bilingual) -- oh, and that's per month.

We're considering chile also, but I haven't done any research for that either. We have plenty of time though. I want to research everything and have it planned well.

What's the scoop on Uruguay?

brian

 

[citygirl]

You probably would be looking at 35% taxes plus mandatory contributions to retirement, etc if you are working in white for a company here. And salary levels are not high. Honestly, unless you could come in a a very high level for an international company, I think you would be crazy to attempt to work here.

Anything is possible and far be it for me to rain on someone's dreams but before you even think about moving here, come down and spend an extended amount of time here. If you're not fluent yet (and you won't be in 6 months), navigating the government and registering your kids for schools, setting up bills, health insurance, looking at buying a car - it's going to be a nightmare far beyond anything you can imagine. It just will.

As far as costs - well, I pay 900 pesos (about 225 dollars) a month as a single person. If you want a good private insurance for a family - you're going to be paying a lot of money. Housing costs - do you have a guarnator? If not, you'll be renting a furnished house (?), I don't even know where you would find one for 11 people but you'll be paying several thousand dollars a month.

Read the forums, do a lot of research and if BsAs is in your top 5 - come spend 3 months here. Then and only then would I think about relocating.

 

[davonz]

I would suggest that if you are going to live in argentina, avoid BA. Get a remote job paying in US$ or euros, and live somewhere cheap - the quality of life for your tribe would be much greater.. BA for all its good points, is a big, nosiy and polluted place, with not alot of parks/outside green space for the amount of people - it is very high density housing.. If you have been to Ho Chi Mine city, think 100 times worse than that..
BA isnt cheap either - I have spent the last few months in belgium, switzerland, eygpt, vietnam, thailand, and NZ, and BA is more expensive than the rest except for switzerland, and with the exception of public transport in some of the other places - food, rent, plane travel, electronics, cars - bascially you name it - it is more expensive in BA. But outside of BA food and rent prices drop pretty quickly.

I am in the IT industry, and from what I have been told by the locals in IT the wages are not good, and I would imagine you wouldnt be able to survive on a local wage with your cost to support the whole family..
Look at it this way, why do these big IT companies have offices in countries like AR - its because the wages are low, and the skill level is pretty good - so why would they pay an expat a very good wage to work here ?

But dont listen to the people here saying dont move with the kids - the challenge and change of moving to a another country, and experiencing the way they live.. will keep life interesting.. not to mention character building !!!

 

[syngirl]

What I meant is that a US company would pay me half for working remotely as compared to what they would pay if I showed up in person.



I can already speak a fair amount of spanish, but I'm nowhere near fluent. I can also understand a lot more than I can speak because of the french. About half the time, I can guess the right verb in spanish, but I can't conjugate it. So I'm definitely not starting from scratch.

Hey brian -- sorry I meant if you were to be paid at local level to half your pay, half it again, half it etc until you got down to about 3-5k USD


Re: the Spanish -- lots of people say the same thing and then they encounter Portenos! Have a look on youtube for some vids -- compared to Portenos the Mexicans speak as if they've been smoking some weed and are ready for a nap... ie they are nice and sloooow and easy to understand. Portenos speak very fast and when you say you don't understand they'll repeat it again at exactly the same rapid-fire pace. There's not a lot of slowing it down for the foreigners here.

I'm just trying to say, expectations for fluency are usually greatly overestimated -- most people cannot possibly achieve fluency unless they really do have the time to quit their job and surround themselves only by spanish speakers.

 

[mini]

But dont listen to the people here saying dont move with the kids - the challenge and change of moving to a another country, and experiencing the way they live.. will keep life interesting.. not to mention character building !!!

I certainly wouldn't say "don't come here with kids". But just imagine getting the paperwork done for 11 people! Birth certificates, local & foreign police reports, if you have any sort of name issue it's pain the behind, etc. Honestly just thinking of getting the papers together for the whole family is a job in itself as well as proof of income. If they are coming without a company sponsorship they will need X,000 peso per person per month income in escrow.

 

[steveinbsas]

Mini is right about the paperwork issues. All of the kids will have to have DNI's before they can enroll in school. You will have to provide birth certificates and adoption papers (all with the seal of the apostille as well as translated and legalized). Even if everything was "in order" for the adoptions in other countries, you should plan on having problems with those papers here.

If you work on your own "en negro" you will have to "prove" stable foreign income of $2000 USD per month to receive a visa rentista (so everyone can get a DNI). I believe this amount applies to the entire family (as opposed to each and every individual), but you cannot use "active" income to meet this requirement.

Another hurdle will be finding anyone in Argentina who is willing to rent a house to anyone with nine children (with or without a garantia)! If you have $80K -100K (USD) to "invest" you could buy a large lot (1250 mtrs2) and build a 100 -135 mtr2 house near where I live, but not in or even near Capital Federal. I am in a remarkably peaceful, relatively safe, and very family friendly area. There aren't any jobs for expats here, but there are some opportunities for entrepreneurs.

 

[syngirl]

I think it really comes down to those of us who have been living here for awhile trying to envision 1 salary stretching for that many kids and still maintaining a standard of living that would be acceptable to the average American. Especially if you'd like to move to Buenos Aires vs a very rural area (which presents it's own set of problems)

If you move down and eventually decide to go back to the States, you're going to have a very hefty flights bill at the end of your stay in Argentina -- make sure to have a generous portion of that in the bank before you get here -- when I first came flights to NA could be found for about 800 bucks, now they are hovering around 1500. If you were being paid in pesos, you might end up needing a years salary just to fly the family back to the States at the end of your stay. And without actually having lived here, it will be hard to predict whether the move will be successful and permanent, or if within 1 to 2 years you'll want to be back home (most expats seem to make it to 2 years before returning to their home countries -- those of us who stay longer usually have local family / spouses etc that keep us here).

On a more positive note -- you had mentioned church groups etc -- not sure which church you are a member of. The evangelical church is becoming hugely popular here and in Brasil (I am not sure which branch etc) -- perhaps you could try to get contacts via your church, maybe there are some programs that they might have to help you -- probably not in terms of a permanent move, I'm just thinking maybe they would have some sort of volunteer experience that you could do as a family to give you a taste of South America without having to make the initial commitment to moving.

 

[fifs2]

Brian,
First of all let me say what many will think but maybe not have written which is welcome to the dreamer´s club..that elite group of thousands of people whose urge to travel and live abroad is ike an itch that cannot be scratched. Each and everyone one of us BA expats will have gone through your dreaming process, many more have come and gone so the good news is there is proof that life as an expats in Ba is possible..even for someone like you who seems to like a challenge!
More good news is that there really is a burgeoning IT/services industry here with IT parks established within Bsas provinces,even as far as Tandil polo which would be a lovely place to raise a family. Experienced resources are in demand but a lack of pure fluency will hinder you in your search and dare I say it age...I have no idea how old you are but here in Ba its usual to advertise for jobs with age limits and anyone over 35 is considered less eligible workwise. I can only agree that finding a job pre move would be wise of else a 3 month stay here that would allow you to go meet and/or interview locally and get a sense of salary possibilities.

Isnt it Paolo Coelho who says that if you really want something the universe will conspire to make it happen? As you are clearly a committed family man I am sure you can make Ba work for you but all of the advice here offered re private medical insurance, schools, housing, paperwork etc is so valuable to make that universe work in your favor. Bonne chance!