How can we improve Argentina?

[Matt84]

Does that mean that once you have an Argentine kid you are part of the Argentine society?

Is there really a (large) influx of Ukranians? I thought it was more a thing from the early 90's

Having kids is not a prerequisite. What I'm trying to say is that Argentina, at least Buenos Aires, is after all a very diverse, dynamic society. Some Argentinians drink mate others hate it and are not less Argie or "patriotic" for it.

The Argentine Society *you* want to be a part of, is actually one that was imposed -and righteously so- 120 to 80 years ago, upon the criollo society. The only actually defyining factor might be the Castellano language, which, as I pointed out, all non-Spanish inmigrants had to learn just as you guys.

While these are historic facts, I'm also a little biased since I'm not the Nationalist type. But Objectively, there are very culturally defined - homogeneous - countries, like Japan, Korea, and maybe Slovakia, and others that are heterogeneous, like both corners of the Americas.

Back to the point: If you want to improve Argentina try to think it as a second chance to make America.

Ukranians are still coming but I just pointed that as an example of the other kind of inmigrants that act solely on self interest and out of necessity, and as a side effect they improve the country: Think the efficiency of a Chinese supermarket staffed with Paraguayans in contrast to the ever-lasting lines at Disco.

And they are upgrading into chain stores already like "Safari"

 

[igor]

But let us all start simple if we must, let us try to encourage people NOT to throw/litter; starting from that bus ticket, candy wrapper or cigarette packet on the ground. It will show we all care about this country and everyone can do it. I live outside of the Capital and sadly trash is every where.

Going back to the litter/dog shit on the streets, it always reminds me of following quote:

What do you mean by ruin? ... I'll tell you what it is: if instead of operating every evening I were to start a glee club in my apartment, that would mean that I was on the road to ruin. If when I go to the lavatory I don't pee, if you'll excuse the expression, into the bowl but on to the floor instead and if Zina and Darya Petrovna were to do the same thing, the lavatory would be ruined. Ruin, therefore, is not caused by lavatories but it's something that starts in people's heads. So when these clowns start shouting "Stop the ruin!" - I laugh!'

Prof. Preobrazhensky
"Heart of a Dog" by Mikhail Bulgakov, 1925
​

I believe, that people need to recognize themselves that it is necessary to keep the streets clean, just because it makes their lives more enjoyable. Trying to make them to change their behavior by force or even encouragement (especially from an outsider) is useless. Hiring somebody to clean sidewalks by your house is an option. Or may be even maintaining several blocks spotless clean as an example of how city streets should look like.

 

[RWS]

I agree, Igor. Civic betterment -- even the sense of "civis" at all -- starts within the individual and is sustainable only through him, not through enforcement from above.

 

[hyperborean]

I'm a guest here and it's presumptuous for me to ask if I can "improve" Argentina. If you invite someone in your house, do you want them to ask if they can "improve" it?

This is typical American Salvation-Army do-gooding stuff.

 

[RWS]

I'm a guest here and it's presumptuous for me to ask if I can "improve" Argentina. . . .

True -- if you're simply a tourist or someone who expects to stay but a few years at most. I think, though, that the thread is for those who have adopted Argentina as their homeland.

This is typical American Salvation-Army do-gooding stuff.

Don't fault the Salvation Army! You as a member of the bourgeoisie may never have come to know much about the organization, but it has done much good for the poor, the desperate, the needy. (By the way, it's a British foundation and exists in many countries, including Argentina.)

 

[steveinbsas]

Don't fault the Salvation Army! You as a member of the bourgeoisie may never have come to know much about the organization, but it has done much good for the poor, the desperate, the needy. (By the way, it's a British foundation and exists in many countries, including Argentina.)

Ejército de Salvación

http://www1.salvationarmy.org/sae/www_sae_esp.nsf

(Look for the trucks with the red shields.)

 

[hyperborean]

True -- if you're simply a tourist or someone who expects to stay but a few years at most. I think, though, that the thread is for those who have adopted Argentina as their homeland.


Don't fault the Salvation Army! You as a member of the bourgeoisie may never have come to know much about the organization, but it has done much good for the poor, the desperate, the needy. (By the way, it's a British foundation and exists in many countries, including Argentina.)

You're not Argentinian even if you move here for good, just like an Argentinian doesn't just become American with US citizenship or French with French citizenship. The Argentinian people have their own history, identity, etc., and you can't be anything more than a guest here...you don't become part of a people just by kissing a piece of paper.

As for me, you don't know me...I'm not bourgeois...the Salvation Army is the typical bourgeois do-gooding organization, going around the world with its cloying moralism out to "really help someone."

This whole thread is dripping with American Woodrow Wilson-style condescension, the Argentinian people don't need your help, they have their own history.

 

[RWS]

You're not Argentinian even if you move here for good, just like an Argentinian doesn't just become American with US citizenship or French with French citizenship. . . .

Two different cosas here, "hyper". "French" is an ethnicity as well as a citizenship, a true nationality, so, yes, you may be correct in saying that a person doesn't become French with French citizenship. Both the United States and Argentina are, by contrast, composite states, formed by settlers and modified by immigrants; in each, an adaptation to the existing society certainly can admit the new citizen to the fullness of the country.

As for me, you don't know me...I'm not bourgeois...the Salvation Army is the typical bourgeois do-gooding organization, going around the world with its cloying moralism out to "really help someone."

Really? Your ignorance of the Salvation Army and readiness to mischaracterize it to suit your own prejudices do seem familiar to me!

This whole thread is dripping with American Woodrow Wilson-style condescension, the Argentinian people don't need your help, they have their own history.

I'm no fan of Woodrow Wilson -- his racism, his partisan allegiance to the Democratic Party, and much else -- but I see little similarity between that American and the many-origined posters here.

And, yes, we all need the help of others. That's what a functioning society offers.

 

[steveinbsas]

You're not Argentinian even if you move here for good, just like an Argentinian doesn't just become American with US citizenship...

Oh, yes, they do...along with everyone else who becomes a US citizen...no matter where they originally came from.

Quite a few Argentines (as well as Mexicans, Bolivians, etc.) will smile and say we are all Americans by definition in the first place. But using the term "American" as commonly applied to US citizens, it does indeed apply to not only those of us who are citizens by fortune of birth, but to those who have chosen it as well.

I may not be able to do much as an individual to improve Argentina, but by abiding by its laws (including those which apply to labor and immigration), I am certainly not making it any worse.

 

[John.St]

You're not Argentinian even if you move here for good, just like an Argentinian doesn't just become American with US citizenship or French with French citizenship. ...

An Argentino is an American like any citizen in the Americas.

You do become a Frenchman if you receive a French citizenship, a German if ..., etc., you may not belong to the nation but you are a citizen of the state.