Ignorance or bliss?

Definitely I don't think that most locals believe that Argentina isn't a crazy country and this inflation is out of control. I doubt that most people share Bajo's view of "This 27% inflation is normal, things are great, no problems, la la la".

But I will say the USA has their share of problems as well. This printing $600 Billion is a big deal when you consider it's on top of the previous huge piles of money. You can't just keep printing money and expect no repercussions.

It's part of the reason why the stock market is going up. Banks are paying such little interest rates that you have all this money chasing more money. But when you consider the unemployment rates in the USA it's much much higher than these fantasy 9.6% levels that the USA government is throwing out there.

So in this regard, the USA has some things in common with Argentina with these bogus #'s. It's still a mess there and the reason why the real estate market in the USA will probably sink another 10% to 15% before it's all said and done. Nice if you are on the sidelines waiting to swoop it up.

This is a good article from Bloomberg today:


Bernanke Defends Bond Purchases, Sees Stronger Growth

Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke defended the central bank’s decision this week to buy an additional $600 billion in Treasuries, saying the unconventional policy will spur the U.S. recovery.

“We are showing insufficient stimulus,” Bernanke said today in remarks to college students in Jacksonville, Florida. Asset purchases have “the goal of reducing interest rates, providing more stimulus to the economy and, we hope, creating a faster recovery and an inflation rate consistent with long-run stability,” Bernanke said to students.

Bernanke came under fire today from officials in Germany, China, and Brazil, who said his plan to pump cash into the banking system may jar other economies and fail to fuel U.S. growth. Critics including Michael Burry, the former hedge-fund manager who predicted the housing market’s plunge, have said Fed policy is encouraging investors to take on too much risk and threatens to undermine the dollar.

“It’s our problem as well if the U.S. is no longer certain that the old recipes don’t work anymore,” German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said today in Berlin. The Fed’s injection of $600 billion was “clueless” and won’t revive growth, he said.

Brazil’s central bank president, Henrique Meirelles, said “excess liquidity” in the U.S. economy is creating “risks for everyone.” In China, Vice Foreign Minister Cui Tiankai said “many countries are worried about the impact of the policy on their economies.” He also said the U.S. “owes us some explanation on their decision on quantitative easing.”

Primary Goal

Bernanke, responding to a question on the impact of Fed policy on other nations, said its primary goal is to support the U.S. recovery.

“Our first objective, the first goal that we have, is to meet our mandate to get price stability and maximum employment in the United States,” he said. “A strong U.S. economy, a recovering economy, is critical not just for Americans but it’s also critical for the global recovery.”

Stocks capped their best week in two months, with the MSCI World Index and Standard & Poor’s 500 Index up more than 3.4 percent each, after the Fed pledged on Nov. 3 to buy as much as $600 billion of Treasuries through June to boost the economy.

Bernanke is trying to boost growth after near-zero interest rates and $1.7 trillion in securities purchases helped pull the economy out of recession without bringing down joblessness close to a 26-year high
An acceleration of U.S. economic growth would support the value of the U.S. dollar, Bernanke said today.

‘Best Fundamentals’

“The best fundamentals for the dollar will come when the economy is growing strongly,” Bernanke said today. “That is where the fundamentals come from. We are aware the dollar plays a special role in the global economy.”

The dollar advanced 1.1 percent to $1.4049 per euro at 3:08 p.m. in New York from $1.4207 yesterday, when it touched $1.4282, the weakest level since January.
Bernanke said additional easing will help the Fed achieve its two mandates set by Congress for ensuring full employment and stable prices.

“The unemployment rate, if at all, is coming down very, very slowly,” Bernanke told students at Jacksonville University. “Inflation is very, very low, probably below the level that is healthy for the economy in the longer term.”

Referring to the policy of so-called quantitative easing, Bernanke said, “we will be reviewing that regularly to see if it is working, to see how the outlook is changing.”

Asset Values

The Fed’s support for asset values isn’t helping the “real” economy, and is creating “dangerous signs of a potential free fall” in the dollar and will be unsustainable, Burry said in an interview.

Hedge-fund manager Barton Biggs is among those who defended Bernanke.

“We still are in a very precarious situation,” Biggs, the managing partner of New York-based Traxis Partners LLC and former chairman of Morgan Stanley Asset Management, said in an interview today on Bloomberg Television’s “In the Loop” with Betty Liu. “The economy could easily tip back into a double dip, and Bernanke did what he had to do.”
The U.S. added 151,000 jobs last month, Labor Department figures showed today, exceeding all forecasts in a Bloomberg News survey of economists. Private payrolls that exclude government agencies also gained more than forecast, while the jobless rate held at 9.6 percent.

Commodities Prices

Asked by a student if “skyrocketing” commodities prices may threaten his inflation outlook, Bernanke said rising commodities prices are “the one exception” to a broad reduction in inflationary pressures. Overall, excess slack in the economy will make it difficult for producers to push through higher prices to consumers, he said.

“Emerging markets are growing quite quickly,” Bernanke said. “Demand for those commodities is pretty strong. That is going to be a contributor to inflation in the U.S. because it will affect gas prices, for example, and so on.”

Asked by a student about rising gold prices and concerns over inflation, Bernanke said the Fed wouldn’t sacrifice price stability in an attempt to boost growth.
“Let me be very clear: We are absolutely committed to keeping inflation low and stable,” he said. “We have the tools to unwind and tighten policy at the appropriate time. We will honor both sides of our dual mandate.”
 
LAtoBA said:
Okay I get it. If I had known that you were suffering from "Argentina is utopia" syndrome I never would've brought it up. Keep dreaming that the economy is perfect. Heck why stop there? The subte is state of the art, the ubiquitous presence of dog crap in BA gives the city character, and the pollution, well it's good because it makes you stronger by making your lungs work harder than they should naturally have to. :rolleyes:

From my experience, balanced point of views work best.

Nobody things that the ecomony is perfect, but let´s be reallistic, this is not happening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnaqEsxusw
 
jaredwb said:
10 months ago a 72 pack of huggies cost me 75 pesos at Disco (I checked my wife's meticulous baby journal)

Today, the same 72 pack cost me 178 pesos (same Disco)

Well, you could buy a 72 pack of huggies on mercadolibre for 51 pesos.

Which either means inflation is a myth, and the economy is actually experiencing severe deflation. Or it means that the price of huggies in an overpriced "aspirational" supermaket isn't a great economic indicator.
 
What a lot of expats do not realise is that big business have a huge monopoly in Argentina and in most cases charge much more than small business even though their costs and overheads are less. There is tremendous price gouging here and you must look with great care for every product that you buy .

I agree that there is inflation but we can minimise the effects by shopping carefully
 
Bajo_cero2 said:
Did you know that the argentinian debt is tie to inflation. Did you know that INDEC is the authority that rules on how much inflation we have. That this official info is used to settle how much interest we have to pay. So, with those lies they are saving a lot of money.

Inflation is tricky nowadays. Prices rise meanwhile the dollar freeze. Perhaps this means a devaluation of the dollar instead of inflation. Who knows, I quit economy at university because I was bored.
Regards

I find it hard to follow your argument that by under-reporting inflation INDEC is saving money for the public coffers in view of this report below. When a country's credit rating is low it is more expensive for it to borrow money. Argentina must pay higher rates of interest on its government bonds to compensate for the perceived risk of non-payment. Am I confused or should you reenroll at University before giving economic analysis?
Claiming to be more qualified to talk about the AR economy simply because you are a AR citizen is a little like arguing one has to be sick in order to be a doctor.
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/11/06...ewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily

Saturday, November 6th 2010 - 07:38 UTC ...
Risk agencies caution about economic policy changes expectations in Argentina
Concern that Argentina’s government is reporting unreliable economic data is keeping Moody’s Investors Service from boosting the nation’s credit rating, said Patrick Esteruelas, an analyst with the company.

Argentina is rated six levels below investment grade by Moody’s Investors Service at B3. Standard & Poor’s raised the South American nation’s rating one level to B on September 13, matching a July increase by Fitch Ratings and in line with Belize, Honduras and Kenya.
“Argentina’s fundamentals support an upgrade” Esteruelas said at an Emerging Markets Trade Association event in New York. “What is holding back Argentina’s rating is frankly issues over institutional strength, issues over manipulation of data, how that raises questions on its willingness to pay, and of course the ongoing arrears with the Paris Club.”
 
I think what Bajo_cero is referring to is that the INDEC inflation rate is causes a type of controls on things like rent amounts and wage contracts. The peronistas use this as a justification to the poor (for what is effectively rent control policy) and the business sector (for lower wages) for the obvious lying in INDEC's official inflation rate.
 
mendozanow said:
I think what Bajo_cero is referring to is that the INDEC inflation rate is causes a type of controls on things like rent amounts and wage contracts. The peronistas use this as a justification to the poor (for what is effectively rent control policy) and the business sector (for lower wages) for the obvious lying in INDEC's official inflation rate.
You may be right ...that may be what Bajo_cero thinks, but what he said is that grossly under-reporting inflation by INDEC helps AR save money. I appreciate his English is not good. I try to make allowances for that, but after debating with him on another thread and reading through this one, I can not justify his lack of clarity and lack of sense on his poor English language skills. I conclude he says things that often make no sense either because he is not well informed or his ideas are not well reasoned.

Like everyone else, he is entitled to his own opinions - but, he is not entitled to his own facts. Moreover, not all opinions are of equal merit. Some lack credibility for any number of reasons e.g. they are based upon erroneous facts, they fail to cite supporting facts and/or fail to make logical connections between the facts cited and conclusions drawn from them. Of course, some opinions are just the product of a downright bizarre mentality, e.g., the superrich should pay the same rate of taxes as the poor working class.

The credit reporting agencies have just about called the AR authorities liars. The AR govt lack of credibility is costing the country because it's unnecessarily lower credit status pushes up its borrowing costs higher than what they need to be. This is true even though the macroeconomy of the country may be doing comparatively well and the inhabitants have learned to cope with inflation a lot higher than the expats are accustomed to in their countries of origin.
 
darmanad said:
I find it hard to follow your argument that by under-reporting inflation INDEC is saving money for the public coffers in view of this report below.

The way argentinian economist found to avoid these credit rating agencies was to offer bonos atados a la inflación bypassing them. Smart, wasn´t it?

http://www.cronista.com/notas/201664-comenzo-hoy-el-canje-bonos-atados-la-inflacion

darmanad said:
When a country's credit rating is low it is more expensive for it to borrow money. Argentina must pay higher rates of interest on its government bonds to compensate for the perceived risk of non-payment.

This is too basic info and It has no relationship with argentina since 2001. Before that this info was at the news every day. After that, Argentina doesn´t recognize as valid this info, only INDEC info is valid.

darmanad said:
Am I confused or should you reenroll at University before giving economic analysis?

You are confused, no offense.

darmanad said:
Claiming to be more qualified to talk about the AR economy simply because you are a AR citizen is a little like arguing one has to be sick in order to be a doctor.

Your analisys cannot be right if you are lacking very basic info, no offense again.

Regards
 
darmanad said:
You may be right ...that may be what Bajo_cero thinks, but what he said is that grossly under-reporting inflation by INDEC helps AR save money.

If Argentinas inflation is 200% then Argentina has to pay 200% interest for its debts. Is it clear enough?

darmanad said:
I can not justify his lack of clarity and lack of sense on his poor English language skills. I conclude he says things that often make no sense either because he is not well informed or his ideas are not well reasoned.

The issue I think is that you are lacking soo much information and that´s why it is so difficult for you to follow me. No offense, If you didn´t know about bonos atados a la inflacion, what are you talking about? It is all about it. But it is ok, there is no reason why you should know about them, you aren´t native.

However, I believe that respect shouldn´t be forgotten, and this is regarding your next comment:

darmanad said:
Like everyone else, he is entitled to his own opinions - but, he is not entitled to his own facts. Moreover, not all opinions are of equal merit. Some lack credibility for any number of reasons e.g. they are based upon erroneous facts, they fail to cite supporting facts and/or fail to make logical connections between the facts cited and conclusions drawn from them. Of course, some opinions are just the product of a downright bizarre mentality, e.g., the superrich should pay the same rate of taxes as the poor working class.

With all my respect, you don´t know very basic facts. You quoted Standard & Poor’s when this country doesn´t recognize them.

After 2001 crisis argentina was some years without paying its debts. Former President K first paid cash the whole debts with FMI and, after that, he didn´t recognize FMI and those credit risk agencies any more. They had zero interference in our economy since then. That`s why so many argentinian respect former President K, we hate FMI.

http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2005/12/15/um/m-01108325.htm

The second step was to exchange the papers of argentian debt that were in defaul for new ones.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canje_de_la_deuda_argentina

K offered 3 kind of bonos on 2005.

  • El bono Par, que no implica quita del capital original adeudado, pagará un interés inicial del 1,33% que subirá progresivamente hasta alcanzar el 5,25% a los 25 años de su emisión, y tendrá un plazo de 33 años
  • El bono Cuasi Par —que incluye una reducción del 30,1% del capital— pagará un interés del 3,31% más un coeficiente ligado al índice de precios al consumidor y tendrá un plazo de 30 años.
  • El bono Descuento —que implicará una quita del 66,3%— pagará el mayor interés, 8,28%, y tendrá un plazo de 28 años.
So, instead of paying an exorbitant interest rate (Standard & Poor’s rate), we removed until 66.3% of the debt in the case of bono descuento. In the case of bono PAR Argentina pays between 1.33% to 5.25 during 25 years, the increase is progresive. This was done by former President K, so he and his economists weren´t the bunch of idiots somebody asserted at the beggining of this thread. In fact, they were innovative.

The Club de Paris didn´t accept the Argentinian´s offer, they wanted that Argentina pays the debt plus the interest according to Standard & Poors. So, this debt is still in default.

So, the big issue about INDEC is the following. If the real Argentina´s inflation is 30%, the country has to pay 30% of interest for the debt. That´s why there was another "canje" exchange of papers recently:

http://www.cronista.com/notas/201664-comenzo-hoy-el-canje-bonos-atados-la-inflacion

Argentina took these bonos atados a la inflación (CER) and offered other kind (BOCAN 14). But not all the CER bonos were exchanged. So, INDEC will lie until all these CER bonos will be exchanged.

Regards
 
darmanad said:
The credit reporting agencies have just about called the AR authorities liars. The AR govt lack of credibility is costing the country because it's unnecessarily lower credit status pushes up its borrowing costs higher than what they need to be. This is true even though the macroeconomy of the country may be doing comparatively well and the inhabitants have learned to cope with inflation a lot higher than the expats are accustomed to in their countries of origin.

You are right only if you are talking about any other country.

As I explained you before, Argentina (not the credit reporting agencies or the FMI) rules over the borrowing cost. It is known as sovereigns.

As a native, I know that as far as the FMI and those agencies you mentioned cannot interference wirh Argentina`s economy, there can be inflation with no crisis because inflation is inherent to ours economy. Why? Because instead of indebting they print money. So, this is a free way to finance. If your economy is growing and you print money in a razonable way, you get some inflation. The cost is less than benefits.

As you see, the situation is quite unique. Former President K developed this politics.

Regard
 
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