"Insecurity is just a perception"

[Bajo_cero2]

I reply you on the other thread about inflation. Regards

 

[earlyretirement]

I have never seen such a society (like in Argentina) in which so many individuals base their INTELLIGENCE on how well they can "con" or deceive another person. Where does this come from? What are its origins? One can not simply blame the government because essentially even the government is a reflection of the values of the society in an alleged "democracy."

Actually after 7 years living here I'd have to totally agree with you on this part of your post. I've done business all over the world successfully and I've never seen anything like what I see in Argentina on a DAILY basis. It's not just the government either. It's almost ingrained in society here. It's like local Juan Doe thinks that he lies/cheats/steals less than Jane Doe so that makes him an OK person.

Where I come from and how I was raised is it's not ok to cheat/lie/steal from someone else. Apparently the Portenos, for the most part don't follow that creed. I've never in all my life seen that kind of normalized, institutionalized behavior in people. I can tell you some stories. I've seen brothers conning their own brothers, families cheating their own families here.

Perhaps that is the worst thing about Argentina. Just the fact that people think it's ok to act this way is a big problem. And responses like "the poor learned it from the rich" don't make things correct either. That's flawed thinking, IMHO.

Perhaps this is the reason why Argentina continually ranks as one of the most corrupt countries in the world each and every year by Transparency International.

 

[SaraSara]

The "vivo", the "piola", the guy who cuts in line, who cheats an gets away with it, is admired in Argentina. It's always been this way. People are in awe of those smart enough to cheat without being caught. They may know it is not right to do such things, but many consider cheating "cute".

A case in point is Maradona: he's far more admired by the goal he scored by cheating, using a hand (La Mano de Dios goal) than for the many goals he scored legitimately.

There's a famous Vittorio Gassman movie titled "Il Sorpasso". It's old, but worth watching. The hero is a typical "avivado", Argentine style.

 

[sergio]

I agree with the last couple of posts about the con games Porteños play all the time and how they are PROUD and not ashamed of it. So tell me something. how do these Porteños get away with damning the US all the time for being immoral. Are Argentines deluded that they think they're morally superior?

 

[SaraSara]

Argentines are totally irrational when it comes to the US. I no longer argue about that.

 

[jp]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that not all Argentines think and act alike...

 

[allisonk]

Thanks JP for going out on a limb. While I'm aware of the corruption, cons and horrible things that happen and do not want to downplay anyone's experiences of tough times or being taken advantage of, I have had the fortunate experience overall of generosity and kindness from the people here. So many people here have really gone out of their way for me, which I have never experienced in any other country. In fact, its made me more aware of being helpful to immigrants in Australia if/when I return.

 

[esllou]

A case in point is Maradona: he's far more admired by the goal he scored by cheating, using a hand (La Mano de Dios goal) than for the many goals he scored legitimately.

there was a LOT of politics blended in with that goal and the reaction to it.

 

[earlyretirement]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that not all Argentines think and act alike...

Definitely I don't think you can lump in all Argentines into the same category. There are wonderful, generous, gracious people living in this country. At the same time, I'll still stick with my opinion that this type of problem is institutionalized in Argentina.

And even if they aren't conning someone else it's just facts. Look at how many companies are working TOTALLY in "white". It's very low here. And to be honest, I can't blame them completely because the government gives no incentive to honest companies/individuals doing things the right way. Their reward is more taxes and even more enforcement against them vs. even trying to enforce others.

To give you a good example. My father in law started a new business here. He's doing ok but I suggested to him my personal opinion is that he NOT work in "black" and he report that income. I told him now that he is living in Argentina (he is not originally from here but received his DNI) he has an obligation to support Argentina, pay taxes, etc.

So in order to be "white" they make the process so complicated waiting in line at the police, filling out forms, going to AFIP, waiting in lines, telling him he needs more forms, etc. Believe it or not, yesterday he went to AFIP as I told him that I wouldn't pay him unless he gets "white". I own a few companies and he provides some services for one of them. So I told him he needed to get "white" and invoice my corporation.

So he is at AFIP yesterday and turns out he will have to pay quite a bit of his taxes ( % that he wasn't paying before as he just started). And the own AFIP agent asks him, "but why in the world are you declaring your income??? You could easily just work in black and not pay any taxes..." or "declare less than you are actually making so you pay less, " the AFIP worker at the counter told him.

This is a totally true story. So this gives you a bit of the mentality of the locals. Even locals that work at AFIP! This kind of thing totally blows my mind.

He was so frustrated at the process but I still told him that he can't invoice my company unless he gets "white". So, he has more forms to fill out, more lines to wait in and more red tape...all so he can get "white" and pay taxes....

 

[SaraSara]

there was a LOT of politics blended in with that goal and the reaction to it.

Could you expand on that? It sounds interesting.