Is A Violent Insurrection Ever Morally Defensible?

[Gringoboy]

Bad losers?
Really?
I wouldn't consider the reaction of the people to be that of 'bad losers'.
You can squeeze people till the pips squeak, treat them as third class citizens, divide and conquer but there are limits.

 

[Jaredberryman]

In my opinion, violence as a solution is never morally defensible. Of course, my opinion is heavily colored by my religious belief. The most effective way to combat injustice is through non-violent means. You may be beaten down and beaten back, but the only way to truly change something for the long term without causing more violence in the end is through non-violent resistance. History has shown that many non-violent movements that tried to correct injustices were extremely effective and succeeded. In the end, when the knee-jerk reaction is to fight back and hurt the other, you A)cause irreparable damage to yourself, B)set up the stage for retribution, so that more hurt and/or die, and C)someone innocent almost always gets drawn into the conflict. However, when you resist without violence, none of those things happen, and with a bit of patience and determination, the injustice can be righted. The problem, of course, is that you may be beaten, tortured, persecuted or die. But doesn't that happen in the case of violent resistance as well? Sometimes, when we see injustice, it makes us very, very angry. We want to get violent, which is completely understandable. But to me, violence is never an answer. I just can't see arguments that can trump that one. For this reason, I will never participate in any war, even if it means I will be jailed, and I will never fight against anyone physically with the attempt to harm them. This certainly goes against the reasoning of my own culture and our massive military, but I think there are some sounds arguments for what I believe.

 

[Jaredberryman]

Rampant corruption? Menem was like that.
The once accident and la plata and CIudad de Buenos aires flooding are what happens when you live in a 3rd world country.

I understand that there is people with a lot of anger with this government because they now have to pay taxes. It is all about that.

They might try an insurrection but k is not peron.

The caceroludos are patetic, they are just bad loosers.

Don't you think your assessment might be a little harsh? Just as harsh sometimes as people who do not like Cristina and what they think about people that support her? Millions of people are losers? The people that are going out and protesting are protesting because they feel that crime is insufferable, that poverty is growing, that infrastructure is lacking, that the government is corrupt and stealing their taxes (and here we are likely talking about most of the people that pay the taxes for everybody else), etc. To just make a blanket statement that, "they just don't want to pay taxes," is ignorant at best, moronic at worst. No one is going to try an insurrection here (God forbid). These are middle class people that want to see some real changes, that want to see money quit being wasted, that want to see real changes in infrastructure and attempts made at tackling the very real problems that plague their everyday life. You can't just come out and say, "the flooding happened just because we're a third world country". These people are saying, "WE DO NOT WANT TO BE A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY ANY LONGER!" When your government spends billions of pesos on soccer, and then disasters like once and the flooding happen, why in God's name are you not irate about it??? Because it's a third world country? Because it's not Menem? Because you have a job with the government? Honestly, Argentina can do better than Cristina, Menem, or whatever loser is up next. We definitely appreciate your help on this site with all of the information your provide. But with all due respect, wake up.

 

[notebook.fix]

Rampant corruption? Menem was like that.
The once accident and la plata and CIudad de Buenos aires flooding are what happens when you live in a 3rd world country.

I understand that there is people with a lot of anger with this government because they now have to pay taxes. It is all about that.

They might try an insurrection but k is not peron.

The caceroludos are patetic, they are just bad loosers.

Ok BAjozero, your political views are very very clear now. I understand what you are saying, you are saying that this is all a big anti K political campaign by Clarin & a group of Tax dodgers? You're saying that all those hundreds of thousands who marched on the 8th of November are all a bunch of spoiled Miami middle class types who had nothing better to do on that day? You're saying that we should all just shut up & let Cristina keep carrying on like before no?

And the Mar Del PLata drainage problem that could have been avoided was just a cooked up story no? Even after Cristina inaugurated the obras 4 times and though the money went into Football para todos instead of fixing the drainage system this had no affect on the number of drownings (52 and counting) no? This is not an important issue no? And the Once train Crash & TBA? And Boudu, Jaime,Bonafini & etc etc etc etc etc etc etc is just Clarin no?

And all those millions of Dollars funneled into BsAs from Santa Cruz, to be laundered out through a financiera in Puerto Madero didn't happen & we should just ignore the story no? Lanata is just a chanta paid by Clarin to hurt la Kerida Reina no?

And you are probably in full agreement with what la Reina is doing with the 'Democratization of la justicia' tambien no?

Ok. I rest my case.

 

[BienTeVeo]

To live outside the law you must be honest.

- Bob Dylan

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Bad losers?
Really?
I wouldn't consider the reaction of the people to be that of 'bad losers'.
You can squeeze people till the pips squeak, treat them as third class citizens, divide and conquer but there are limits.

Yes, I do. Let's be clear. There was an election and she got 54% of the votes; Binner 17%, Alfonsin 11% {...}, Carrio 1,85%.
They lost in such humiliating way that they lost many votes in the Congress too.

However, those who lost wants to rule. Sorry, it doesn t work that way. The cacerolazos are patetic because they are not like in 2001 when they were spontaneous and massive.
Now they are planed and organize through FB and there are suspicion that Clarin organize them.
So, it is clear that it is just people that doesn t like the politics of the President but, that´s the way it is democracy.
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpais/1-179625-2011-10-24.html

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Millions of people are losers?

They are not millions, be honest. The caceroludos are a few.

When your government spends billions of pesos on soccer, and then disasters like once and the flooding happen, why in God's name are you not irate about it??? Because it's a third world country? Because it's not Menem? Because you have a job with the government? Honestly, Argentina can do better than Cristina, Menem, or whatever loser is up next.

You know, it is easy to say Argentina can do better, the fact is that for over 50 years, it didn t happens.

Clearly you think that K are not be great, but the others are worst. That´s a fact.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Ok BAjozero, your political views are very very clear now. I understand what you are saying, you are saying that this is all a big anti K political campaign by Clarin & a group of Tax dodgers?

I would like to be more specific: Clarin and the "Mesa de enlace" who are very clear that their objective is to make this government fall and the tool is to do not pay taxes. Helloooooooooooooo
http://www.eldiariod...acadas&Itemid=3

You're saying that all those hundreds of thousands who marched on the 8th of November are all a bunch of spoiled Miami middle class types who had nothing better to do on that day? You're saying that we should all just shut up & let Cristina keep carrying on like before no?

Well, that s are the rules of democracy, aren t they?
I can understand you and respect your point of view if you disagree with democracy.

And the Mar Del PLata drainage problem that could have been avoided was just a cooked up story no? Even after Cristina inaugurated the obras 4 times and though the money went into Football para todos instead of fixing the drainage system this had no affect on the number of drownings (52 and counting) no? This is not an important issue no? And the Once train Crash & TBA? And Boudu, Jaime,Bonafini & etc etc etc etc etc etc etc is just Clarin no?

As far as I know, the BA city was also under water. You forgot to complain about Macri?

Lanata is just a chanta paid by Clarin to hurt la Kerida Reina no?

Here we agree, you gave a very good description.

And you are probably in full agreement with what la Reina is doing with the 'Democratization of la justicia' tambien no?

Let s review what is the project about:
1) To get a job at Court as an employed, they will have to apply and compete for it;
2) a big % of the member of the jury of dismiss of judges will have to be elected by popular vote (democracy);
3) There will be a limit to class action for companies.

Do you really think that this reform is bad?????

This is the way it works today:
1) I deal every day with employed at Court who has no idea about law but they are a relative of somebody: Corruption.
2) The jury of dismiss works as a shield to protect judges, That s why there are so many corrupt judges and they don t care even to hide. It is never clear who are the members of the jury of dismiss, whom do they represent, who elect them and why the reject all the dismiss cases.
3) The Clarin Class action was patetic. 3 judges rennounce because the bribes paid by Clarin were too obvious.

So, yes, I think that it will help to get a better quality for institutions.
The K changes the SC and the change was great. So, you already know how do they work.

But we don t have to agree, just to respect each other.
It is also important to respect the will of 54% of the citizens who elect her and the Congress men who work with her to make her projects a reallity. Because she can do what she does because she and her party was elected with 36% of difference with the second force.
Regards

 

[Dipoots]

It's always a bad idea to pick up the soap in a prison bathroom.
Old Chinese proverb.

Nah, this is something you "get" after watching Prison Break.... or been through the Army

 

[Jaredberryman]

They are not millions, be honest. The caceroludos are a few.



You know, it is easy to say Argentina can do better, the fact is that for over 50 years, it didn t happens.

Clearly you think that K are not be great, but the others are worst. That´s a fact.

This is where I think you've got to re-think things. When you are picking leaders, you should never pick "the best of the worst." You will get exactly what you pick. You said before that 'Menem was corrupt too'. In that statement, you as much as admitted that the current government is corrupt. This country does not need more corrupt leaders. There are some things that I thought that Nestor Kirchner did that were smart moves for Argentina. But that is just not enough.

In my own country, I recently refused to vote for either candidate from the main parties, because I saw that both of them seem to also be involved in some corrupt practices. Argentines need to find the leaders that are pure and don't steal and cheat. It begins there.

Also, I don't really think you understand what the concept of democracy is. Democracy is not, "My candidate won so now all others who do not agree with their politics must completely swallow what they are told to do." The whole idea of democracy is that society as a whole is represented and protected. Democracy exists to protect us from our leaders when they are corrupted by power. We are not electing a king. You can't just nonchalantly dismiss 46% (popularity is around 20% now for the current president, I'm guessing that that number is much higher) of the public.

I really would encourage you to travel to the U.S. and learn about the system of democracy there, if you haven't already done so. I'm not saying that from a position of superiority, it's just that after 200 years, we have a very strong democratic system in place. Our system is also becoming increasingly corrupt, and it is full of flaws. People can be apathetic. But there are some really remarkable things in it. Our constitution is just 5 or 6 pages long, yet has endured these 200 years. If I wanted to contact my local representative, I could either go to his local office, or write a letter, and the representative's staff would address my concerns. Same with my home state's senator. If it was important, my local congressman would contact me personally. How many times can those kinds of things happen in Argentina? How is the public's voice heard by those that govern them? It seems to me that most of those in positions of power are not there as public servants, and don't even pretend to be. Believe me, things could be much better organized than they currently are. I'm sure I won't change your mind any time soon, but I hope I can at least give you food for thought.