Kirchner Rescued Argentinas Economy and help unite South America

[perry]

I think I understand your points as well and agree. I think the financial markets are signaling that change may be possible now which would increase profitability which could spur additional investments and growth, maybe better way of putting it. You also have to be careful when looking at statistics for Argentina. The fact that inflation is being under-reported is widely known. There is a belief that they have been over-reporting growth as well. For example in 2009 the government I believe(don't have the numbers in front of me) showed modest growth in the economy whereas private estimates are that the economy actually shrank about 4 or 4.5 percent. The point with Brazil or Chile is that their economic model may have ups and downs but it they appear to be sustainable and delivering growth over the long term. I don't think Nestor's model was sustainable over time, maybe that will change now, but I have my doubts.

Your comments show little knowledge about economics nor the facts on growth and real change . The proof of real growth is employment figures and wage rates and Argentinas performance in this field since 2003 is very impressive far surpassing Chile and Brazil .

Economy growths 8% average from 2003 to 2010

Unemployment in 2003 was 27 nowadays 7.9%. Regarding employment there is a tremendous amount of hiring going on atm and if you wish to work in Buenos Aires legally there is a lot of work . In 2003 it was a ghost town with very low employment . From then to now the difference is nothing short of incredible.

In 2003 only 55% of grand parents had a "private pension". Nowadays 88% of grand parents have a state pension.

Minimum wage In Argentina has increased 170% since 2003 . It is currently close to US $ 500 per month at 1840 argentine pesos.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100805-724718.html

Chile the country that you rave about and with over 20 years of growth has a far lower minimum wage than Argentinas at US $ 310 per month. Why have they not shared more of their wealth around to their citizens?
http://www.santiagotimes.cl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19047:chiles-minimum-wage-change-still-in-limbo&catid=1ther&Itemid=38

The Brazilian national minimum wage is adjusted annually. The minimum wage in 2009 was R$ 465 per month (which corresponds to R$ 23,25 per day and R$ 2,9 per hour).
In 2010 Brazilian minimum wage increased to R$ 510 per month (which corresponds to R$25,5 per day and R$ 3,18 per hour) If you consider how much more expensive Brazil is to Argentina this is a very low minimum wage .

The figures above for Brazil show that the mimimum wage in dollar terms set by law are just under US $ 300 per month .

As stated before growth rates mean nothing if there are no fundamental changes in the society and if you look at these figures above Argentina will come up close to NUMBER ONE in the world for change since 2003.

 

[citygirl]

Your comments show little knowledge about economics nor the facts on growth and real change . The proof of real growth is employment figures and wage rates and Argentinas performance in this field since 2003 is very impressive far surpassing Chile and Brazil .

Economy growths 8% average from 2003 to 2010
Well - that is not exactly accurate. From 2003-2006, yes. From 2007 to now, no. And there is fairly strong evidence that the gov't has overstated the growth. For 2007, they claim 8.6. Actual seems to be about 7.6 In 2008, the gov't claims 6.8, again analysts put it at about 5. And '09, they say .05 and analysts say it was probably about -2.8.

Unemployment in 2003 was 27 nowadays 7.9%
Actually it's 8.7%, an increase from 7.9 in 2008

In 2003 only 55% of grand parents had a "private pension". Nowadays 88% of grand parents have a state pension.
Maybe that isn't the strongest argument since many would have been more than happy to keep their private pension

Minimum wage In Argentina has increased 170% since 2003 . It is currently close to US $ 500 per month at 1840 argentine pesos.

I think we've discussed this before. That's great if you're en blanco. A huge majority of the workforce is not.

As stated before growth rates mean nothing if there are no fundamental changes in the society and if you look at these figures above Argentina will come up close to NUMBER ONE in the world for change since 2003.

As a business person who has a vested interest in seeing this country succeed, I hope that Argentina puts together a comprehensive plan for economic growth, lifts some restrictions to enable businesses to invest in Argentina and becomes a more diverse economy.

Personally, as a business person, I don't think the K's had any exceptional positive influence on the economy. The longevity of his (and her) service did allow some stability which I think was a good thing. However, from my POV, I think the rebounding of the economy was based on an explosion in commodity pricing and a starting point that was pretty much zero. The two factors together led to a admittedly spectacular recovery. Whether the economy continues to grow and be stable, only time will tell.

 

[gouchobob]

Your comments show little knowledge about economics nor the facts on growth and real change . The proof of real growth is employment figures and wage rates and Argentinas performance in this field since 2003 is very impressive far surpassing Chile and Brazil .

Economy growths 8% average from 2003 to 2010

All though growth has been good its been overstated by less than credible Indec figures. Of course its at the expense of very high inflation. In 2010 officially Argentina has the third highest inflation rate in the world using government numbers of 11% or so. Using real numbers of 25% the inflation rate puts Argentina number one in this category.

Unemployment in 2003 was 27 nowadays 7.9%

Another statistic that's been cooked by our friends at Indec, private estimates are much higher.

In 2003 only 55% of grand parents had a "private pension". Nowadays 88% of grand parents have a state pension.

Don't know much about this, does the 88% represent the private pension funds confiscated by the government, suspect it does. All this has done is fuel fears of what they might do next, and kept investments in the country very low. I would not see this as a positive.

Minimum wage In Argentina has increased 170% since 2003 . It is currently close to US $ 500 per month at 1840 argentine pesos.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100805-7

The question is not what the minimum wage is. The question is how many people actually receive it and if its kept up with the very high level of inflation the government says doesn't exist. My guess is that the minimum wage earner even with a 170% increase is still losing ground.

Chile the country that you rave about and with over 20 years of growth has a far lower minimum wage than Argentinas at US $ 310 per month. Why have they not shared more of their wealth around to their citizens?
http://www.santiagotimes.cl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19047:chiles-minimum-wage-change-still-in-limbo&catid=1ther&Itemid=38

Doesn't really matter what the minimum wage is. What counts is the rate poverty which is lower in Chile today than Argentina. Chile has done very well over the last 20 years and now has a GDP per capita higher than Argentina. The much lower poverty rates there indicate its being spread around and that the economic model there is helping all the people.

The Brazilian national minimum wage is adjusted annually. The minimum wage in 2009 was R$ 465 per month (which corresponds to R$ 23,25 per day and R$ 2,9 per hour).
In 2010 Brazilian minimum wage increased to R$ 510 per month (which corresponds to R$25,5 per day and R$ 3,18 per hour)

The figures above for Brazil show that the mimimum wage in dollar terms set by law are just under US $ 300 per month .

This is not the right way too look at it. Brazil is still a poorer country but it is growing rapidly thanks to reasonable policies under Lula. Peoples lives there are quickly improving.

As stated before growth rates mean nothing if there are no fundamental changes in the society and if you look at these figures above Argentina will come up close to NUMBER ONE in the world for change since 2003.

Even if what you say is true a better question is whether or not this is a sustainable model or just a flash in the pan. My opinion is that it is the later. I believe if the policies that have been implemented under the Kirchners continue that the country will enter another period of problems and crises. I think we don't have long to wait if they continue and I believe my views will be proven correct in the next year or two.

 

[dr__dawggy]

Your comments show little knowledge about economics nor the facts on growth and real change . The proof of real growth is employment figures and wage rates and Argentinas performance in this field since 2003 is very impressive far surpassing Chile and Brazil .

Economy growths 8% average from 2003 to 2010

Unemployment in 2003 was 27 nowadays 7.9%. Regarding employment there is a tremendous amount of hiring going on atm and if you wish to work in Buenos Aires legally there is a lot of work . In 2003 it was a ghost town with very low employment . From then to now the difference is nothing short of incredible.

In 2003 only 55% of grand parents had a "private pension". Nowadays 88% of grand parents have a state pension.

Minimum wage In Argentina has increased 170% since 2003 . It is currently close to US $ 500 per month at 1840 argentine pesos.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100805-724718.html

Chile the country that you rave about and with over 20 years of growth has a far lower minimum wage than Argentinas at US $ 310 per month. Why have they not shared more of their wealth around to their citizens?
http://www.santiagotimes.cl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19047:chiles-minimum-wage-change-still-in-limbo&catid=1ther&Itemid=38

The Brazilian national minimum wage is adjusted annually. The minimum wage in 2009 was R$ 465 per month (which corresponds to R$ 23,25 per day and R$ 2,9 per hour).
In 2010 Brazilian minimum wage increased to R$ 510 per month (which corresponds to R$25,5 per day and R$ 3,18 per hour) If you consider how much more expensive Brazil is to Argentina this is a very low minimum wage .

The figures above for Brazil show that the mimimum wage in dollar terms set by law are just under US $ 300 per month .

As stated before growth rates mean nothing if there are no fundamental changes in the society and if you look at these figures above Argentina will come up close to NUMBER ONE in the world for change since 2003.

hint...perhaps the best way to avoid being further offended by less-than-flattering posts about the career of the deceased former president is to avoid making statements that can be rebutted by counter arguments. If this is a time for national mourning, than mourn rather than continue endless debates about the political and economic accomplishments of a very colorful and controversial character. Just my thoughts.

 

[redrum]

I read a good one in the Economist and the Miami Herald but I won't post them but others might.

Now I am a supporter of dictators? Don't now where you came up with this. I have always posted in favor of basic freedoms and rights of people. I have noticed when you don't have a good counter argument you quickly resort to insults and personal defamation's of me and other posters.

heh heh, now now bob. let's not go and play the role of saint just yet.

you are just as guilty as anybody on this board for attacking, defaming or attempting to subtly ridicule someone who holds a differing opinion.

your worst crime? you remain deathly silent on issues where you have been proven wrong or where it's simply more convenient for you to be condescending rather than attempt to contribute thoughtful debate.

but don't worry, you're not the only one who falls into this category.

 

[redrum]

The people of Argentina deserve better, but unfortunately they are in the grip of a political and financial "elite" that depend on a large proportion of its population staying poor and being easily manipulated, and therefore do all it can to stop real progress.

amen brother. your comment describes not only events here in argentina but in most parts of the world and that includes the US more and more.

a global elite is running the show behind the scenes as countries now engage in currency wars. the "solution" will eventually be a one world currency and a stronger role for the IMF.

 

[earlyretirement]

As a business person who has a vested interest in seeing this country succeed, I hope that Argentina puts together a comprehensive plan for economic growth, lifts some restrictions to enable businesses to invest in Argentina and becomes a more diverse economy.

Personally, as a business person, I don't think the K's had any exceptional positive influence on the economy. The longevity of his (and her) service did allow some stability which I think was a good thing. However, from my POV, I think the rebounding of the economy was based on an explosion in commodity pricing and a starting point that was pretty much zero. The two factors together led to a admittedly spectacular recovery. Whether the economy continues to grow and be stable, only time will tell.

I'd have to agree with your comments here. I've lived in Argentina many years now and to be honest I had good expectations for the Kichners many years ago. In fact, I even had the pleasure to personally meet both of them some years back. However, I'll say I agree with this post. I also don't think that the K's had any "exceptional positive influence on the economy".

To be honest, things couldn't have gotten much worse when he took over so the only direction to go was up. People can disagree with that statement and that is fine. I do agree that they were also fortunate with the tremendous upswing in commodity prices.

I have quite a bit of experience here in Argentina at various levels of business and I will say the K's for the most part have been horrible for businesses. I won't even go into the fact they effectively tried to control ALL branches of the government which NO ONE can even logically try to defend or excuse. I'm strictly speaking from a business standpoint.

I do hope and wish the best for Argentina and it's people. My children were born here in Argentina which I'm very proud of and my sincere wish and hope is they have a chance to see fundamental systematic change and a reduction in the amount of corruption here with a functioning judicial and banking system. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime but I hope they see it in theirs.

 

[SaraSara]

I do hope and wish the best for Argentina and it's people. My children were born here in Argentina which I'm very proud of and my sincere wish and hope is they have a chance to see fundamental systematic change and a reduction in the amount of corruption here with a functioning judicial and banking system. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime but I hope they see it in theirs.

A heartfelt AMEN to the above...!

 

[gouchobob]

heh heh, now now bob. let's not go and play the role of saint just yet.

you are just as guilty as anybody on this board for attacking, defaming or attempting to subtly ridicule someone who holds a differing opinion.

your worst crime? you remain deathly silent on issues where you have been proven wrong or where it's simply more convenient for you to be condescending rather than attempt to contribute thoughtful debate.

but don't worry, you're not the only one who falls into this category.

I am often wrong, probably at times use more sarcasm than I should. I am always willing to give serious answers to serious questions. I am at my most vulnerable of doing something silly is when I see something completely ridiculous on this forum that begs for a response (sarcasm is often required). There of examples of this on this very thread. By the way I'm coming up with a list of dictators I am actively supporting and will post it shortly. Members who agree will be asked to give cash donations which I promise to pass along to the dictators of their choice.

 

[dr__dawggy]

I am often wrong, probably at times use more sarcasm than I should. I am always willing to give serious answers to serious questions. I am at my most vulnerable of doing something silly is when I see something completely ridiculous on this forum that begs for a response (sarcasm is often required). There of examples of this on this very thread. By the way I'm coming up with a list of dictators I am actively supporting and will post it shortly. Members who agree will be asked to give cash donations which I promise to pass along to the dictators of their choice.

As a "well known righty" can we assume your list of dictators will not include Chavez, Castro or other left wing dictators?