Los paises mas corruptos del mundo

[orwellian]

Again, a bunch of opinions stated as facts. "I doubt", "we know", "we can safely assume".....

It's interesting to hear other people's opinions, but they should be presented as such and not posted as the Gospel. That, orwellian, is my point.

Fact: CIA trained paramilitary groups in torture techniques.
Fact: Several witnesses of American civilians who themselves were subjected to torture claim they were raped and tortured by Americans.

These are the facts. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

 

[SaraSara]

Fact: CIA trained paramilitary groups in torture techniques.
Fact: Several witnesses of American civilians who themselves were subjected to torture claim they were raped and tortured by Americans.

These are the facts. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

I conclude that you believe those are the facts. However, your belief doesn't make them so.

No matter how emphatically you present your views as incontrovertible facts, they remain only your personal opinions. You have a right to them, just don't expect them to be accepted as the Gospel truth.

I also conclude that such opinions are highly biased, coming from someone who routinely blames all the ills of the world on the Evil US and its Satanic Ways...!

 

[arty]

Glad to see that you contribute to the corruption levels in several countries.

I didn't create the problem but I'll use it to my advantage.

 

[marraco]

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

This is supposed to be a list of the world's nations ordered from least to most corrupt. I don't know if I agree with their results though. It places Cuba at 61 and Argentina at 106. Is Argentina really more corrupt than Cuba? That doesn't sound right to me.... How about Chile at 25 and Uruguay at 26? They did pretty good.

Good news for New Zealanders though, your number 1! (USA you come in at 19, not bad at all.)

Argentina has a lot of corruption, but also a highly critical and hawkish press.

Transparency International measures perception of corruption, so the countries with more hawkish press have higher perception.

Other Latin countries have less press, and it is more closely controlled by the governing oligachy.

 

[ssr]

Argentina has a lot of corruption, but also a highly critical and hawkish press.

Transparency International measures perception of corruption, so the countries with more hawkish press have higher perception.

Other Latin countries have less press, and it is more closely controlled by the governing oligachy.

Hm, well, my perception of Argentina's corruption is certainly not based on anything written about in the Argentine press. I've simply heard loads of first-hand stories about incidents of corruption (cops and inspectors and judges and customs officials who will make a problem go away--one they often created themselves--for a bribe) in Argentina.

Argentina is perceived to be corrupt because it's corrupt. Hopefully the Argentine press is doing a good job of investigating and exposing corruption, but the press doesn't enforce laws. People need to be tossed in jail and it needs to be made crystal clear to Argentines (and foreigners like arty) that bribing cops or any other officials is a crime and that there are severe consequences for doing it. I read in my Lonely Planet Chile guidebook that the cops in Chile take great pride in their integrity and that trying to bribe one will land you in jail quick. Argentina needs a bit of that integrity.

And, arty, if you happen to get yourself into trouble in Chile, could you try to bribe a cop and let us know how that goes? I'm curious if Lonely Planet is just totally full of BS. Thanks, champ.

 

[orwellian]

Other Latin countries have less press, and it is more closely controlled by the governing oligachy.

What countries?

 

[orwellian]

I conclude that you believe those are the facts. However, your belief doesn't make them so.

Well we can debate what constitutes as fact. But in this case it's pretty clear:

A newly declassified CIA training manual details torture methods used against suspected subversives in Central America during the 1980s, refuting claims by the agency that no such methods were taught there.

"Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual -- 1983" was released Friday in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed by The Sun on May 26, 1994.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...ure-methods-counterintelligence-interrogation

That's according to the CIA themselves. Now do you believe it's a fact?

I also conclude that such opinions are highly biased, coming from someone who routinely blames all the ills of the world on the Evil US and its Satanic Ways...!

And you are biased because you routinely deny any atrocity that the U.S has carried out. So what's the point of pointing out the obvious? I guess that's all you can do, try to poke some holes in the other persons argument. And when that doesn't work, just ignore the thread like you never posted in it in the first place.

 

[ghost]

That's according to the CIA themselves. Now do you believe it's a fact?



.

i see nothing more than the statement that the CIA published a manual for training "somebody" and the following quote from your very own posted resource.
The 1983 manual was altered between 1984 and early 1985 to discourage torture after a furor was raised in Congress and the press about CIA training techniques being used in Central America. Those alterations and new instructions appear in the documents obtained by The Sun, support the conclusion that methods taught in the earlier version were illegal.
A cover sheet placed in the manual in March 1985 cautions: "The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults or exposure to inhumane treatment of any kind as an aid to interrogation is prohibited by law, both international and domestic; it is neither authorized nor condoned."
However I still do not see any FACT that the CIA tortured anyone. Maybe they did? But my issue is simply that you constantly use your conclusions based on secondary publications as FACT.
By the way the Freedom of Information act is a pretty nice legal tool. I wonder if Argentina has one?

 

[orwellian]

i see nothing more than the statement that the CIA published a manual for training "somebody"

You see what you want to see:

However, a declassified 1989 report prepared for the Senate intelligence committee, obtained earlier by The Sun, says the 1983 manual was developed from notes of a CIA interrogation course in Honduras.

However I still do not see any FACT that the CIA tortured anyone.

That's because you don't want to see it. You rather just ignore the information than deal with the fact that the people you are defending have tortured, raped and murdered American nuns. I mean how far do they have to go until you actually criticize them?

If it has been proven that the CIA trained and funded the paramilitary groups. And that we have several credible eye witness reports that claims that Americans tortured them as outlined in these training manuals. And if there is no other plausible explanation for who these men were working for, it is demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that they were in fact working directly or indirectly for the CIA. It thus becomes a historical fact. And the history books will prove me right on this point.

 

[mikaela]

The country with the lowest scores are the least corrupt - its an upside down table - NZ is not more corrupt than Somalia.... and Argentina is definitely more corrupt than Chile -