Overstayed Visa--How Many Times Is This Acceptable?

[sevi]

I doubt that many pseudo tourists are making anywhere near the taxable monthly level of income and I personally don't care.

What are the thresholds? 15000 pesos per month? I hope that most expats make more than that!

 

[ElQueso]

Being able to declare income is not the same as being legally able to work. So you could get a tax ID and declare income even though you are not legally able to work (neither employed nor self employed).
And you are almost right with the DNI that is needed to work. It is actually the cuil that you need (or cuit if selfemployed). You can get both without DNI and a lot of patience (for example if you are on a precaria residence).

Saying "DNI" is a lot shorter than saying "if you have a temporary permission to reside and work in Argentina in the form of a precaria or have actual approved residency (which also allows you to work legally in Argentina) in the form of a DNI". I thought it was understood that a precaria is indeed a form of temporary residency and using those three initials was my intent to cover that. I also didn't spell out the letters as "documento nacional de identidad" but everyone knows what DNI means anyway

I also know you can get a CUIL or CUIT without the DNI specifically, but the first step to a DNI is the precaria. And guess what - you can't get the CUIL or CUIT without the precaria or DNI and if you don't get approved for residency, you lose your precaria benefits and you never get a DNI. And without the precaria or DNI you will not be working legally.

Either way, you are talking about someone who has a residency and is permitted to work. Perma-tourists do not have either a precaria or a DNI. Nor do they have a work visa. Nor do they have a legal right to work (and pay income taxes) here. The moment you have any form of residency, you are no longer a perma-tourist and have the right to work (and pay income taxes). We are (or at least I am) talking about perma-tourists.

At least that's the way my accountant explained it to me years ago when I was dealing with starting up two different businesses, and more recently when I got my CUIT and began paying taxes as a monotributista.

More power to you if you can, and desire to, pay taxes as a perma-tourist (it sounds like you're not, if you have a precaria, the "you" is intended generally). But as Ben mentioned, people shouldn't be all that quick to apply the same rules they live by at home here - you'll probably get eaten up and spit out quickly if you try to do everything the way the law says. And more to the point, I doubt there are more than 1% of the Argentine population that follows all the laws, and income tax (including business income taxes) just happens to be one of the biggest things in which a large, large portion of the Argentine populace tries to evade with regularity.

If Argentina wants to collect taxes from people it lets in the country legally, it can also allow them to work legally and pay taxes without residency (whether you call it DNI, precaria, or what-have-you). If it doesn't want perma-tourists in the country not paying income taxes, they have a solution for that too

 

[ElQueso]

A more philosophical thought about some of this:

As someone mentioned on the forum some time ago, trying to take an entire country and the attitudes/actions of perma-tourists and compare it to being a guest in someone's house and treating them in some rude fashion, is not necessarily very apt. Or at least the comparison is only taken from one side, how the guest acts. What about how the host acts?

I have a friend who can be quite proud and stand on form at times. Sometimes the strangest of times to pick to take his stand. One night, after a dinner at which I spent a good hour or more cooking some beautiful ojo de bifes and chorizos and salmon on a grill ( and sweating my rear end off ) we were sitting and talking politics. My friend rents a very big house in town where we often gather. There were 3 or 4 of us in the living room, drinking coffee. We were all good friends. I was trying to make a point, but my friend (who is quite large and has a voice to match, that covers all conversation at times) kept shouting over me every time I opened my mouth, repeating the same thing as if to drill it past me, without letting me get a word out, literally stomping over me. I got frustrated and shouted "shut the f__k up and let me talk" loud enough to trump his voice.

There was sudden silence. His face turned red. Nothing more was said about that that night, but a few nights later I was over at his apartment and we talked about it. He said "you know, you really embarrassed me in front of our peers the other night. A guest doesn't shout at his host like that." I sat for a moment, somewhat perplexed, because I had actually come over with the thought of apologizing, and he being a reasonable guy (which he is), I figured he was going to apologize also. We had both gotten heated during a political discussion and we actually had no problems the rest of that night and enjoyed the evening's further discussions.

I told him "man, a host doesn't treat his guest like a misbehaving little boy, and shout him down like an abusive father in front of his peers either." He sat for a moment and contemplated that. I said "I figured we were both wrong for getting heated." He accepted that and we both apologized.

If Argentina (or any country) were that reasonable, I'd say things would be a lot different. But Argentina as a host leaves some things to be desired.

Each person acts on their own urges, tempered by their morals and strength of their convictions. It's a rare person that will feel happy giving hard earned money to an extortionist, but probably most will at the point of a gun. But people will give money to something they believe in. If the extortionist is smart, he'll be as nice as possible and actually give you something for your money and make you believe you need it. If he's stupid, he'll give your hard earned money to his buddies and buy them a bunch of guns. He'll make a minimum effort to sell the need to collect the money and just take it. And when you bitch about it, you get a gun pointed in your face.

Argentinos in large parts don't follow the laws of their own land, particularly related to taxes and money. As a host, they don't set a good example. To follow along with the host/guest example: I would feel a whole lot more like I was being rude to my host country by not paying taxes if I was living in, say, Norway, than Argentina.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

That is true, but it isn't exactly the same in the US

It looks like soon there will be many newly "legal" immigrants who will be working and not only not paying federal income taxes, but receiving the "earned income tax credit" of up to $24,000 per year.

The "earned income tax credit" is a euphemism for receiving money (a check) from the government as opposed to paying money to it.

At least the new legals will be paying some FICA taxes...if that's any consolation, but that revenue just goes to fund the ponzi schemes known as Social Security and Medicare.

Except for a few dead-enders unable to accept the New Deal as a done deal, Social Security and Medicare are popular, efficiently-run safety-net programs that have saved millions from hopeless destitution in their old age. Even schlock novelists have taken advantage of their provisions.

As for undocumented immigrants, many of them have already paid in millions, if not billions, to help finance those funds, and newly documented ones will pay in even more. The big problem with FICA taxes is that the ceiling for contributions is far too low, so the burden falls unfairly on those least able to pay.

As for the earned income credit, well, the numbers cited above are only off by 400 percent or so: "For tax year 2013, the maximum EITC benefit for a single person or couple filing without qualifying children is $487. The maximum EITC with one qualifying child is $3,250, with two children it is $5,372, and with three or more qualifying children it is $6,044.[sup][2][/sup][sup][3][/sup][sup][4][/sup] These amounts are indexed annually for inflation." Of course, the hard numbers don't fit the narrative that the doomsday fantasists prefer.

 

[sevi]

Perma-tourists do not have either a precaria or a DNI. Nor do they have a work visa. Nor do they have a legal right to work (and pay income taxes) here.

Having an income is independent from being legally able to work. So the so-called "perma tourist" - while not allowed to work legally here (employed/selfemployed) - can still legally have an income (earn money without working themselves in Argentina). And while they cannot get a cuit (or cuil) they can legally get a CDI (as a "persona fisica") and use it for their income declaration. If they do not do so, because nobody does, is a different topic. I am not pointing the finger at those who don't. My original post was in response to somebody saying that it was enough to pay the VAT. So by law it is not enough. If you are libertarian who thinks nobody should pay (income-) taxes is also a different topic. I really do not want to get into that discussion (or a discussion about income credit in the US).

 

[ben]

A more philosophical thought about some of this:

As someone mentioned on the forum some time ago, trying to take an entire country and the attitudes/actions of perma-tourists and compare it to being a guest in someone's house and treating them in some rude fashion, is not necessarily very apt. Or at least the comparison is only taken from one side, how the guest acts. What about how the host acts?

I have a friend who can be quite proud and stand on form at times. Sometimes the strangest of times to pick to take his stand. One night, after a dinner at which I spent a good hour or more cooking some beautiful ojo de bifes and chorizos and salmon on a grill ( and sweating my rear end off ) we were sitting and talking politics. My friend rents a very big house in town where we often gather. There were 3 or 4 of us in the living room, drinking coffee. We were all good friends. I was trying to make a point, but my friend (who is quite large and has a voice to match, that covers all conversation at times) kept shouting over me every time I opened my mouth, repeating the same thing as if to drill it past me, without letting me get a word out, literally stomping over me. I got frustrated and shouted "shut the f__k up and let me talk" loud enough to trump his voice.

There was sudden silence. His face turned red. Nothing more was said about that that night, but a few nights later I was over at his apartment and we talked about it. He said "you know, you really embarrassed me in front of our peers the other night. A guest doesn't shout at his host like that." I sat for a moment, somewhat perplexed, because I had actually come over with the thought of apologizing, and he being a reasonable guy (which he is), I figured he was going to apologize also. We had both gotten heated during a political discussion and we actually had no problems the rest of that night and enjoyed the evening's further discussions.

I told him "man, a host doesn't treat his guest like a misbehaving little boy, and shout him down like an abusive father in front of his peers either." He sat for a moment and contemplated that. I said "I figured we were both wrong for getting heated." He accepted that and we both apologized.

If Argentina (or any country) were that reasonable, I'd say things would be a lot different. But Argentina as a host leaves some things to be desired.

Each person acts on their own urges, tempered by their morals and strength of their convictions. It's a rare person that will feel happy giving hard earned money to an extortionist, but probably most will at the point of a gun. But people will give money to something they believe in. If the extortionist is smart, he'll be as nice as possible and actually give you something for your money and make you believe you need it. If he's stupid, he'll give your hard earned money to his buddies and buy them a bunch of guns. He'll make a minimum effort to sell the need to collect the money and just take it. And when you bitch about it, you get a gun pointed in your face.

Argentinos in large parts don't follow the laws of their own land, particularly related to taxes and money. As a host, they don't set a good example. To follow along with the host/guest example: I would feel a whole lot more like I was being rude to my host country by not paying taxes if I was living in, say, Norway, than Argentina.

The whole post is perfect, but the last sentence elicits a big BINGO.

Just to add, It's not only that Argentinos in large parts don't follow the laws of their own land, the authorities as well don't seem to particularly care for the rules except to the extent that someone wants more money.

This shows in the extent of the corruption, from the top down, and in the public discourse, for example when Capitanich (or was it Aníbal?) states publicly the desire of the government to have the dólar negro trade at no more than 11 pesos. Think about that. Let that sink in. What country on this blessed earth publicly acknowledges the parallel currency, and talks of the government's plans for this currency?

The same kind that allows this parallel one to arise. The same one which issues statements to the effect of there existing no cepo cambiario. The one which says ad infinitum that any importer has automatic access to divisas... until they don't. The one which has zero respect for their own rules.

 

[steveinbsas]

As for the earned income credit, well, the numbers cited above are only off by 400 percent or so: "For tax year 2013, the maximum EITC benefit for a single person or couple filing without qualifying children is $487. The maximum EITC with one qualifying child is $3,250, with two children it is $5,372, and with three or more qualifying children it is $6,044.[sup][2][/sup][sup][3][/sup][sup][4][/sup] These amounts are indexed annually for inflation." Of course, the hard numbers don't fit the narrative that the doomsday fantasists prefer.

When I wrote "It looks like soon there will be many newly "legal" immigrants who will be working and not only not paying federal income taxes, but receiving the "earned income tax credit" of up to $24,000 per year." I meant that it was possible for some to receive the earned income credit on an income of (up to) $24,000 per year, not that anyone would receive a check for $24,000.

The point was that not everyone in the US who works "legally" in the US pays federal income taxes and some who do work legally also receive money (direct payments) from the government.

 

[steveinbsas]

What are the thresholds? 15000 pesos per month? I hope that most expats make more than that!

Perhaps most expats who are working legally do make more than $15,000 pesos per month, but I wonder how many of the "pseudo tourists" who aren't working legally are able to make that much. I would imagine it's only a few who are working "remotely" from Argentina.

I also wonder how many of them there actually are in Argentina...dozens...hundreds...thousands?

PS: I live quite comfortably in Argentina on less than $10,000 pesos per month, but I don't eat in restaurants and I don't pay rent.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Can you clarify your question? If you live here and don't work here, you pay all indirect taxes like every local and also stuff like health insurance, city taxes for the rental apartment, etc. - what do you think is missing here that locals pay while "perma-tourists" don't?

According to the incone tax law, you are taxable if you are here while you work so, working with your laptop through internet is to work here.
Then you have to pay monotributo or Iva (21%) plus income tax (35%) but you deduct iva and expendichures.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

According to the incone tax law, you are taxable if you are here while you work so, working with your laptop through internet is to work here.
Then you have to pay monotributo or Iva (21%) plus income tax (35%) but you deduct iva and expendichures.

Of course, this is utterly unenforceable.