Pirate state of Israel

lol @ Israeli's becoming neo nazis

The israeli government and military are all war criminals. I hope one day they are tried for their crimes. They used to be able to do whatever they wanted to the Palestinians without reproach but now the entire world can see what they are doing and is against them. There is really very little point in debating the issue. The entire world sees what is going on and they are disgusted by israels actions.

Listening to israeli apologists and their drivel is pointless. Their job isn't to debate, their job is to justify, rationalize and deny. But you simply can't justify or rationalize the murder of innocent civilians, racism, apartheid and illegally stealing and occupying land. It is time to stop talking and debating and simply condemn, sanction and lay siege ( read : embargo ) to israel just as they are doing to the Palestinians.

The Israeli regime is running out of time, friends and options, they have squandered all the good will that was given to them after wwII. Either make REAL lasting substantive peace and stop acting like nazis or the entire world will turn their backs on you and then all thats left is 7 million israelis in the desert with a bunch of nukes surrounded by half a billion Muslims ( who will probably have nukes as well ). I hope the israeli people choose a better option than the one their immoral leaders are giving them.

I hope that peace will one day find it's way to the Levant.
 
AlexfromLA said:
lol @ Israeli's becoming neo nazis

The israeli government and military are all war criminals. I hope one day they are tried for their crimes. They used to be able to do whatever they wanted to the Palestinians without reproach but now the entire world can see what they are doing and is against them. There is really very little point in debating the issue. The entire world sees what is going on and they are disgusted by israels actions.

Listening to israeli apologists and their drivel is pointless. Their job isn't to debate, their job is to justify, rationalize and deny. But you simply can't justify or rationalize the murder of innocent civilians, racism, apartheid and illegally stealing and occupying land. It is time to stop talking and debating and simply condemn, sanction and lay siege ( read : embargo ) to israel just as they are doing to the Palestinians.

The Israeli regime is running out of time, friends and options, they have squandered all the good will that was given to them after wwII. Either make REAL lasting substantive peace and stop acting like nazis or the entire world will turn their backs on you and then all thats left is 7 million israelis in the desert with a bunch of nukes surrounded by half a billion Muslims ( who will probably have nukes as well ). I hope the israeli people choose a better option than the one their immoral leaders are giving them.

I hope that peace will one day find it's way to the Levant.
Click to expand...

Thank you for yet another informative, fact filled contribution. It's obvious to see how commited you are to the search for truth and justice by virtue of your insightful, consciousness raising statments such as: a) "lol @ Israeli's becoming neo nazis", and b) "There is really very little point in debating the issue." and c) It is time to stop talking and debating and simply condemn, sanction and lay siege ( read : embargo ) to israel..."

You apparently hail from the same school of intellectual curiousity as BBwolf who, after erroneously declaring the IDF gave no warning prior to boarding the Marmara, stated (see p.2): "Even this absurd discussion shouldn't be taking place."
You condemn Israel as neo Nazis (absurd hyperbole which immediately undermines your credibility), but set forth absolutely no reasons for such strong language. Zero. Zilch. I am willing to be persuaded to your point of view, but only if you can explain the facts and reasoning to support it. Help me out. Explain the basis of your position, unless of course, you truly mean that there really is no point in discussing this.
Specifically, on what basis do you contend that the Israeli government and military are all war criminals? Do you intend to include every member of the Knesset, even the Arab ones and those in minority parties strongly opposed to the Likud Party and Netanyahu's actions? Do you intend to include as a war criminal every member of the IDF without regard to rank? That's a very curious and unprecedented position. Exactly what are the acts of these people that constitute war crimes? Please be specific.

You claim that "Listening to israeli apologists and their drivel is pointless. Their job isn't to debate, their job is to justify, rationalize and deny." Aside from the obvious inherent contradiction contained in this statement, did you by any chance take the time to read the mideast history set forth in the link cited in my previous post? http://mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
Do you think the content is drivel? Do you not concede a case can be made for the Israeli position based upon comprehension of the detailed facts compiled by this distinguished neutral group of peace activists? See http://mideastweb.org/about.htm.

Why do you express such reluctance to debate with the Israeli apologists? If your version of the facts and law is so absolutely rock solid, why not shed some light on the conflict for the rest of us? Avoiding all debate on the grounds that it is pointless is really meanspirited and selfish. Come on, tell us why you think the way you do.

You go on to say that "you simply can't justify or rationalize the murder of innocent civilians, racism, apartheid and illegally stealing and occupying land." I might argue that the term "murder" is generally not a term applied to casualties of war, even innocent civlians. Of course, placing bombs on public buses, in civilian airplanes, in cafes, and firing rockets indiscriminantly into civilian populations might constitute murder or war crimes. Who does those things?

Racism and apartheid? Even the Arab ass-kissing UN withdrew the 1975 resolution equating Zionism with apartheid (in 1991). Do Jews in Muslim countries enjoy the panopoly of civil rights available to Arabs in Israel? How many Jews serve in the government of Syria, Jordan, Iran or Saudi Arabia? Admittedly, there may be some de facto prejudice against Palestinians living in Israel, but there is no institutionalized (de jure) prejudice or racism. Moreover, Islam is not a race. Israelis and Arabs are both semitic people who probably share more genetic similarities than Iranians do with Syrians. The charge of racism makes little sense.

Stealing and occupying land? Is it stealing to retain land obtained after winning a defensive war? Did the Romans voluntarily relinquish captured territory? Did the Muslim Arabian rulers in the 8th -14th century as they spread north from the Arabian peninsula? Did the Crusaders? Did the Ottoman Turks? Did the US after the Mexican and Spanish wars? There is lots of precedent that land conquered in war, particularly defensive war, is retained by the winner.

Following WWII, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution providing for a sensible and relatively equal partition of the land that was formerly part of the British mandate. The plan provided for a Palestinian and a Jewish state based upon existing demographics. The Arab countires rejected that plan. Israel accepted it and subsequently declared independence based upon the UN mandated boundaries. Immediately thereafter a multitude of Arab countries declared war on Israel. There hasn't been peace since.
When the Palestinians, Egyptians and Syrians lost more land as a result of the 1967 war, they insisted that Israel give it all back! Where is the historical precedent for calling this captured land stolen? Palestine wasn't even an existing state in 1967. Nevertheless, Israel returned almost all of the Sinai to make peace with Egypt. In 1990 it offered to return 97% of the West Bank in return for an Arab acknowledgment of its right to exist. That seems eminently fair to me. The PLO rejected the offer.

Are my facts wrong?
 
Powell.jpg


lol

Your attempts at " schooling " people into believing what you want them to believe failed miserably.

Stop illegally occupying Palestine, stop killing innocent civilians, stop treating Palestinians like sub humans. Stop lying your asses off. Stop the illegal siege of an entire nation of people. Stop thinking that you are above international law. You're not.

Once those basic human requirements have been met you might get someone to listen to you. Until then, save it, no one wants to hear it.
 
Your ridicule of me and anyone else who wants to discuss the issues is very telling, just as is the offensive cartoon you included with your bombast. Instead of pointing out where my facts are wrong, you simply reiterate your ignorant blather. If my attempts at schooling failed miserably with you, it's obviously because you have the attention span of a chimpanzee...and you are proud of it, too.
 
darmanad said:
You apparently hail from the same school of intellectual curiousity as BBwolf who, after erroneously declaring the IDF gave no warning prior to boarding the Marmara, stated (see p.2): "Even this absurd discussion shouldn't be taking place."
Click to expand...

Darmanad, what is the point of your posts? You're not persuading anyone. It seems your attempts to justify and rationalise Israel's actions -- and perhaps also to obfuscate and confuse key issues -- are not bearing fruit. Why continue? Few if any are interested in your hair-splitting legal justifications. And I note with interest that your responses are more often than not personal in nature -- either the issue is something emotional with you or you will use any trick in the book to discredit those who disagree with you.

What you are trying to do is suck people into the vortex of long hair-splitting and tedious legal arguments where the real nature of what took place gradually fades from sight. Most of us -- if the responses here are any indication -- are just not interested.
 
lol

This dude is a total troll job. Out of his 41 posts in this forum about 35 of them are either in this thread or in other threads regarding Muslims and Islam.
 
bigbadwolf said:
Darmanad, what is the point of your posts? You're not persuading anyone. It seems your attempts to justify and rationalise Israel's actions -- and perhaps also to obfuscate and confuse key issues -- are not bearing fruit. Why continue? Few if any are interested in your hair-splitting legal justifications. And I note with interest that your responses are more often than not personal in nature -- either the issue is something emotional with you or you will use any trick in the book to discredit those who disagree with you.

What you are trying to do is suck people into the vortex of long hair-splitting and tedious legal arguments where the real nature of what took place gradually fades from sight. Most of us -- if the responses here are any indication -- are just not interested.
Click to expand...

BBwolf,
Despite mostly disagreeing with you, I do have some respect for your opinions. You seem to be fairly intelligent and well informed. Consequently, I expected more from you than this, excuse the expression, ad hominem attack. As for ad hominem attacks in general, several of the first posts of yours that I came across were extremely personal and rude. You seem to have backed off from that. I deny that I have engaged in unprovoked personal attacks and invite you to point out where I have done so. Most of the name calling and ranting comes from the Israel bashers.

I don't know if I am persuading anyone or not, however, I do not measure the correctness of my actions in presenting opposing or unpopular views by the number of posters who agree or disagree. I'm just trying to present an argument against the uninformed ranters who insanely relish saying stuff like the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is equal to the Nazi treatment of the Jews. Or that the IDF boarding of the Marmara was an act of piracy or a clear cut case of a war crime. There are two sides to the story and unfortunately most people do not have or take the time to educate themselves with the relevant facts upon which to form an educated opinion. I'm hoping to give those who would bash Israel some food for thought.
Why do you accuse me of trying to obfuscate and using any trick in the book to discredit those with whom I disagree? I invite you to specify where I have unfairly done so. I don't regard pointing out the flaws in someone's statements as improperly discrediting them. If one can't substantiate their arguments with facts and reason after having been invited to do so, I'd say it's fair to comment on their failure to do so.
More importantly, why don't you just contradict the facts which you accuse me of erroneously arguing? Wouldn't that be a more effective way of clarifying the important issues? When you belittle my posts as hair splitting it strikes me as an evasive admission that there is truth to the arguments I have presented.

Finally, I expect more from you than to argue that I am trying to "suck people into the vortex of long hair-splitting and tedious legal arguments where the real nature of what took place gradually fades from sight." This is a reiteration of your prior statment "Even this absurd discussion shouldn't be taking place." Rather than accuse me of trying to deceive, why not use this as a platform to educate others so that they can make better informed decisions?
p.s. I stand by my observation about AlexfromLA and his offensive cartoon. If that is ad hominem, so be it.
 
From the June 17 Times of London by that notorious right winger, Jose Maria Aznar:

Support Israel: if it goes down, we all go down
José María Aznar
Anger over Gaza is a distraction. We cannot forget that Israel is the West’s best ally in a turbulent region
For far too long now it has been unfashionable in Europe to speak up for Israel. In the wake of the recent incident on board a ship full of anti-Israeli activists in the Mediterranean, it is hard to think of a more unpopular cause to champion.
In an ideal world, the assault by Israeli commandos on the Mavi Marmara would not have ended up with nine dead and a score wounded. In an ideal world, the soldiers would have been peacefully welcomed on to the ship. In an ideal world, no state, let alone a recent ally of Israel such as Turkey, would have sponsored and organised a flotilla whose sole purpose was to create an impossible situation for Israel: making it choose between giving up its security policy and the naval blockade, or risking the wrath of the world.
In our dealings with Israel, we must blow away the red mists of anger that too often cloud our judgment. A reasonable and balanced approach should encapsulate the following realities: first, the state of Israel was created by a decision of the UN. Its legitimacy, therefore, should not be in question. Israel is a nation with deeply rooted democratic institutions. It is a dynamic and open society that has repeatedly excelled in culture, science and technology.
Second, owing to its roots, history, and values, Israel is a fully fledged Western nation. Indeed, it is a normal Western nation, but one confronted by abnormal circumstances.
Uniquely in the West, it is the only democracy whose very existence has been questioned since its inception. In the first instance, it was attacked by its neighbours using the conventional weapons of war. Then it faced terrorism culminating in wave after wave of suicide attacks. Now, at the behest of radical Islamists and their sympathisers, it faces a campaign of delegitimisation through international law and diplomacy.
Sixty-two years after its creation, Israel is still fighting for its very survival. Punished with missiles raining from north and south, threatened with destruction by an Iran aiming to acquire nuclear weapons and pressed upon by friend and foe, Israel, it seems, is never to have a moment’s peace.
For years, the focus of Western attention has understandably been on the peace process between Israelis and Palestinians. But if Israel is in danger today and the whole region is slipping towards a worryingly problematic future, it is not due to the lack of understanding between the parties on how to solve this conflict. The parameters of any prospective peace agreement are clear, however difficult it may seem for the two sides to make the final push for a settlement.
The real threats to regional stability, however, are to be found in the rise of a radical Islamism which sees Israel’s destruction as the fulfilment of its religious destiny and, simultaneously in the case of Iran, as an expression of its ambitions for regional hegemony. Both phenomena are threats that affect not only Israel, but also the wider West and the world at large.
The core of the problem lies in the ambiguous and often erroneous manner in which too many Western countries are now reacting to this situation. It is easy to blame Israel for all the evils in the Middle East. Some even act and talk as if a new understanding with the Muslim world could be achieved if only we were prepared to sacrifice the Jewish state on the altar. This would be folly.
Israel is our first line of defence in a turbulent region that is constantly at risk of descending into chaos; a region vital to our energy security owing to our overdependence on Middle Eastern oil; a region that forms the front line in the fight against extremism. If Israel goes down, we all go down.
To defend Israel’s right to exist in peace, within secure borders, requires a degree of moral and strategic clarity that too often seems to have disappeared in Europe. The United States shows worrying signs of heading in the same direction.
The West is going through a period of confusion over the shape of the world’s future. To a great extent, this confusion is caused by a kind of masochistic self-doubt over our own identity; by the rule of political correctness; by a multiculturalism that forces us to our knees before others; and by a secularism which, irony of ironies, blinds us even when we are confronted by jihadis promoting the most fanatical incarnation of their faith. To abandon Israel to its fate, at this moment of all moments, would merely serve to illustrate how far we have sunk and how inexorable our decline now appears.
This cannot be allowed to happen. Motivated by the need to rebuild our own Western values, expressing deep concern about the wave of aggression against Israel, and mindful that Israel’s strength is our strength and Israel’s weakness is our weakness, I have decided to promote a new Friends of Israel initiative with the help of some prominent people, including David Trimble, Andrew Roberts, John Bolton, Alejandro Toledo (the former President of Peru), Marcello Pera (philosopher and former President of the Italian Senate), Fiamma Nirenstein (the Italian author and politician), the financier Robert Agostinelli and the Catholic intellectual George Weigel.
It is not our intention to defend any specific policy or any particular Israeli government. The sponsors of this initiative are certain to disagree at times with decisions taken by Jerusalem. We are democrats, and we believe in diversity.
What binds us, however, is our unyielding support for Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. For Western countries to side with those who question Israel’s legitimacy, for them to play games in international bodies with Israel’s vital security issues, for them to appease those who oppose Western values rather than robustly to stand up in defence of those values, is not only a grave moral mistake, but a strategic error of the first magnitude.
Israel is a fundamental part of the West. The West is what it is thanks to its Judeo-Christian roots. If the Jewish element of those roots is upturned and Israel is lost, then we are lost too. Whether we like it or not, our fate is inextricably intertwined.
José María Aznar was Prime Minister of Spain, 1996-2004
(emphasis added)
 
lol

does anyone here actually take the time to read this trolls BS ?

:|

seriously ?
 
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