cabrera said:
This thread has been hijacked by Darmanad who is justifying the most unjustifiable . I believe this was a tactic made famous by the Nazis and is called propaganda and is used to a higher degree today by the supporters of death and destruction.
I thought the term "hijacking" was defined as manipulating the discussion away from the original topic of the thread. I think my posts are relevant to the original subject - the alleged pirate state of Israel and its war crimes, however, I would not be opposed to creating a new thread labelled Mideast Politics or anything similar.
As for the charge that I have used nazi tactics, "propaganda" (presuming you define it as
false information), to justify the unjustifiable I invite you to specify the falsity in my statements. I concur that getting accurate information in times of war is difficult. I appreciate your effort to share the data set out in your last 4 posts. Unfortunately, I was not able to access the sources as the links you provded only brought me back to this web site. I'd appreciate getting the correct links/source or you can advise if I have overlooked something.
I know this is an emotional subject, but the continued trivialization of the Nazi final solution by comparing it to the Israeli treatment of Gazans is ludicrous. I dismiss anyone who makes that claim as an ignorant kook. Nevertheless, the substantive issues you raise do deserve examination.
Preliminarily, is it your contention that the disproportionate destruction of Palestinian property or the higher number of Palestinians jailed/killed /injured is evidence of the righteousness of their cause? That one side of the conflict is militarily superior doesn't ipso facto validate (or invalidate) its actions. Numbers standing alone do not justify anything.(p.s. See criticism of Hamas recently destroying Gaza houses -
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...dents-tear-dozens-homes-says-built-illegally/ )
Most imprisonment and killing stemmed from the second intifada so it helps to understand the background of the second or
Al-Aqsa intifada. Here is a link that explains the circumstances and provides a timeline.
http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/second_intifada.htm
The PLO under Arafat signed the Oslo peace accords in the early 90s, recognizing for the first time UN resolution 242 and the right of Israel to exist. Large chunks of the West Bank captured in the 1967 war were turned over to the PLO by Israel. During the process of finalzation of the terms, extremist Palestinian groups who objected to the agreements began a campaign of ambushes and suicide bombings against Israel. The Palestine National Authority claimed they could not control the dissident groups. Final status negotiations faltered in September 2000 when Ariel Sharon visited the Temple mount, which includes the Al-Aqsa mosque. This ignited violent riots, that were met with lethal force by the IDF. The violence became generalized "resistance," called "the Intifadeh," involving large sectors of the population as well as the Palestine National Authority itself, and the Palestinian police force set up by the Oslo agreements. Polls indicated that about half the Palestinians believed that the aim of the Intifadeh was to destroy Israel. Since September 28, 2000, Palestinians have killed over a thousand Israelis in terror and suicide attacks. Israelis have killed over 3,500 (as of 2006) in "defense" operations and reprisals, including many civilians. http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm
I am not bothered by the imprisonment of violent rioters and insurrectionists. The overwhelming majority of Palestinian prisoners have been incarcerated as a result of violent actions during and subsequent to the second intifada which has now subsided. As a former lawyer I am more concerned with the controversial policy of administrative detentions implemented by Israel whereby persons suspected of crime may be held without charges for up to 6 months. For a picture of the current situation sympathetic to the Palestinian viewpoint see:
http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/C...risonersinIsraelijails/tabid/355/Default.aspx
I believe Israel's continuing construction of settlements on land originally (pre 1967) designated as territory within the Arab state by the UN has been counterproductive. I believe those Arabs who refer to themselves as Palestinians and who were inhabiting that part of the mideast in the 1940s are entitled to a contiguous land mass state. In accordance with the original UN plan I believe Jerusalem ought to be co-governed as a city state akin to the Vatican. I believe reparations should be paid to those Arabs who abandoned homes in Israel back in the 1940s, but with no right of return.
No one who is the least bit informed believes Hamas will ever change its charter to allow a state of Israel to exist in the mideast. Hamas and Israel are engaged in a shooting war. Israel is entitled to take actions to protect its citizens from indiscriminant bombing by Hamas, bombing which indisputably constitutes an illegal act of war. Consequently, I believe the Gaza embargo/blockade is not an illegal war crime as that term is defined because the interest of Israel in defending its citizens from Hamas bombing justifies the degree of hardship it imposes on Gazans.
It follows that the IDF had the right to interdict the Marmara even in international waters as it had declared it was Gaza bound and refused an order to divert to Ashod. I believe the crew of the Marmara were intent of provoking a physical encounter to focus the world's attention on the plight of the Gazans. I believe that the IHH which sponsored the Marmara is a co-conspirator with Hamas in this conduct. See
http://www.investigativeproject.org/1998/ihhs-deep-longstanding-terror-ties
It has become fashonable for liberals to hop aboard the bandwagon condemning Israel's conduct toward the Palestinians. Where is the condemnation of Hamas and its fundamental belief system that abhors freedom of conscience, freedom of speech and equal treatment for women and non-Muslims under the law? Talk about a successful propaganda program...I give you the religion of peace.
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