Racism Towards People From The States?

[Rich One]

I'd say Argentinians are a very (very!) pale copy of Italians. In some things, they are similars, but for many others they are quite the opposite. Overall, I'd say there are more points of difference than of analogy, though they think exactly the opposite. But I grant you - they are very far from Italians, nowadays.

Argentina is the mirror image of the deep Calabria and Sicily regions where most of the immigrants came from.

Yesterday at Mirtha Legrand's dinner table all guests had Italian Last names and some from Calabria like Macri, Francella, Franco, Lanusse,, Michetti, was it a coincidence of the Argentina Political Power ??
In a recent trial both of the contending Attorneys were of Calabrese origin , they agreed on the sentence shook hands and said Palabra de Calabrese

Question: the Calabrese and Sicilian immigrants brought only their food and family traditions ? and left behind their way of doing business and idiosyncrasy

 

[ajoknoblauch]

You are comparing the bankrupt and demoralized Argentina of today with the United States. Did you know that before the defeat in the Falklands, Argentina was the most militaristic country in Latin America by a wide margin? Did you know that from the 1940s until 1982, Argentina had one of the most intensive and ambitious military buildup programs in the planet, for the dismay of all neighboring countries? Argentina was trying to build nuclear missiles and point them at Brasilia, Rio and Sao Paulo, for heavens sake. By the late 1970s, Argentina was desperately looking for a war. The Falkland War was supposed to be a war against Chile, but the Pope intervened and threatened to excommunicate Vidella if the war happened. So, Chile and Brazil, as catholic countries, were out of the question for the Argentina military, so the only option left was the Falklands.

For Argentine milicos, the Falklands were a trial run for an attack on Chile. Their mistake was underestimating a country that had a serious and well-organized military, but at least their stupidity avoided a war that would have led to large civilian casualties on both sides of the Andes.

 

[camberiu]

I certainly would never claim that every US citizen has an open mind or is well informed.

Bob

It is shocking that a population willing to issue so many "military blank checks" to its government can also be willingly so ill informed about the wars it agrees to start.
As the outcome of the end of hostilities of the first Gulf War 1990-91, Saddam Hussein agreed to dispose of its WMDs.
Saddam Hussein used nerve gas against against the Kurds and against the Iranians back in the 80s, years before the gulf war.
And the chemical weapons found were old expired artillery shells, build before the gulf war and already inert and without any military value. Saddam Hussein had no WMD programs. It had actually complied with all terms of the agreement and the invasion of Iraq was based on a lie. If the US was really open to self-criticism, the entire Bush cabinet, including Bush himself, would be in jail right now.

 

[Fangar]

I'm so glad I don't have to join every pissing match that pops up here. I am fascinated, however, by the Argentines' love/hate attitude about Britain and all things British.

 

[johnw100]

I would say that 90% of Argentines assume that I'm American (substitute with North American, Yankee etc) when I start to speak to them, which I find neither offensive or complimentary, more amusing or passive really.
When they discover I'm British, they go all gooey and tell me how they (not all of them of course) wish the Brits had succeeded in colonising Argentina all those years ago, yawn.
I was roundly attacked once on an Argentine motorbike club forum by a member who had a real problem with the Falklands/Malvinas issue. he subsequently left the club, whilst the rest of the members rallied to my support.
One has to stand back and look at the wider picture most of the time.

Ha , its true about the wishing we did the colonising bit. Think my Argie father in law brings that up at least once a week, usually after muttering something ending in loco gringo. Its only 22c outside!! and your only wearing a t-shirt and shorts! loco gringo, he says.

Anyway, I find that people here seem to want to talk about 3 things when they learn i`m British and its usually football, music or rugby. Somewhere down the line of conversation after a few beers usually comes falklands/malvinas and its 9 out of 10 times in agreement that its not worth the loss of lives and theyd rather sort this country out and its politicians first than some bleak rocks in the south atlantic. I did once have a woman start talking about the British being the pirates of the world, and then I highlighted that she had a spanish ancestry and has she ever heard the saying pot calling the kettle black. Then about 2 weeks later she invited us to afternoon tea at her house, and out she bought her union jack emblazoned tea set and unopened box of twinings tea that a friend had bought over for her from London about 5 years before. Just so she could go around telling her friends she had afternoon tea with an Englishman. Bless.

 

[ARbound]

This may be true of the US but I think less so than in many other countries. Certainly in the US we at least openly admit and discuss our past sins. We all know about our terrible mistreatment of Native Americans, our slavery/segregationist/racist history, our fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo in WWII, our use of atomic weapons in WWII. And I know that this list can be easily extended. I am not suggesting that such sins should be forgiven, just that, unlike in some countries, they are freely discussed in the US.

Bob

I don't think that level of self awareness even exists in Canada, let alone the United States. Granted, people don't like being told what horrible thing was done past/present/future in their name, especially when they're against it, but as others have said, at least Germany owns it and you don't have the revisionist history
of Abe in Japan, Texas high school "history" books in the United States, or Canadian civics classes that basically spout a bunch of BS about how Canada is a peacekeeping country that has never done anything wrong and everyone who backpacks with a Canadian flag on their bag will be treated like gold (something
I cringe at whenever I see it), except for the fact the last Canadian government run residential school for Native Americans closed in 1996.

I think most of us on here realize citizenship/nationality/ethnicity/race/culture are more nuanced than if you're white and speak English you're American or if you're
of a darker complexion and speak Spanish you're Mexican, but for lots of people this isn't the case.

Argentina isn't a special case though, you talk to Poles or Chinese people and they still harbor feelings of resentment towards Germans and Japanese, but generally
I find this to be limited to the very old, or ultra patriotic.

When I was at a Shinto Shrine in Kyoto a group of 15/16 year olds from a rural part of Honshu visiting it with their teacher approached me and asked if I spoke English and if they could practice with me and ask me questions since they didn't get to see native English speakers that much. No one, old or young, asked me to state my opinion of the atomic bombs, I didn't make remarks about Pearl Harbor or the Rape of Nanjing, and nobody made sligh remarks about how I should speak Japanese
or that they had an accent. Why? Don't be an asshole or make assumptions about people wherever you or they are. It this that I think is lacking, in Buenos Aires at least...

 

[Girino]

Question: the Calabrese and Sicilian immigrants brought only their food and family traditions ? and left behind their way of doing business and idiosyncrasy

I don't think the "Italian" food you can find here is from the South. Now that you make me think about it:

• Raviolis, they are typical of Piemonte and Emilia Romagna
• Linguinis, fettucinis, lasagnas and fresh pasta is typical of Emilia Romagna
• Fainà, that's typical of Liguria (farinata) and can be found only in the area surrounding Genova, to be precise (including part of Alto Monferrato, which belongs to Piedmont)
• Fugazzeta, that comes from the ligurian "fugassa" (focaccia in plain Italian) and it is a Ligurian specialty.
• Tiramisù, that's from Veneto, in the North East.
• Pasta frolla, I don't know where it comes from, I'd say it is very similar to french pastry, so I am inclined to think it came from the North
• Pan dulce, that's a typical Christmas sweet made in Liguria.
• Pizza, yes, that originated in the South but I believe by the end of the 1800's it was widespread as pasta
• Parmigiana di melanzane, yes that's from the South
• Milanesa, that's from Lombardy or from Austria. There is a dispute on the origin of the plate, but don't forget that Milan, the Lombardy and Veneto were ruled by the Austrian for 50 years. Anyway, definitely not a plate from the South.

Where you thinking about something in particular? I think the hot blood is a very Latin trait, which South Italians, Spaniards and Northern African have in common. Don't forget that in the Mediterranean sea there was a lot of mix up of the centuries, Arabs coming to Sicily, Spain and Southern Italy, and backwards (esp. during the Roman empire). I can't really understand the hatred of Italians toward North African immigrants - some of them are physically identical!

I don't know who "imported" corruption first... it looks like the Roman society was already pretty corrupt, but I am no history buff.
About politicians in Argentina, Macri (I think it was originally Macrì, the accent got lost somehow) and the others, most of the Italian immigrants of the 1900's were from Calabria and Sicilia, so I don't see anything particularly alarming about so many people with Southern surnames in politics.

I looked up the surnames you mentioned and Franco is prevalent in Piedmont-Liguria, Francella is equally present in Lazio and Marche, Lanusse is not Italian, Macrì is of course Calabrian. About the handshake with "Palabra de calabrese" (in Spanish), I find pretty sad that italo-something really need to go back to their ancestor country to find some common ground, and that most of them rely on (negative) stereotypes. When I see restaurants called "Il Padrino" or "Corleone" with signs evoking the mafia movies, I don't know if they want to make fool of the non-Italians who "buy" into this sort of thing or if they themselves believe that's the height of Italianism.
On a side note: nobody affiliated with mafia would open a restaurant called "Il Padrino", so I am inclined to believe it is just marketing for people who don't know any better than them.

I personally don't identify with Southern Italian, and all of these italo-something initiatives found in BsAs are by and for people from there. Two block from here in San Isidro there is a Sardinian association that sing and dances to Sardinian songs in dialect... They invited me to join to make me feel home... but that's very VERY far from my Italian experience. And I don't know many people from the South of Italy who would identify themselves with these things nowadays. I remember reading about an Italian girl in Buenos Aires who said she rarely hangs out with italo-argentinians because they are stuck to weird stereotypes of Italians that get old very quick. I can't agree more.

 

[bobg]

It is shocking that a population willing to issue so many "military blank checks" to its government can also be willingly so ill informed about the wars it agrees to start.
As the outcome of the end of hostilities of the first Gulf War 1990-91, Saddam Hussein agreed to dispose of its WMDs.
Saddam Hussein used nerve gas against against the Kurds and against the Iranians back in the 80s, years before the gulf war.
And the chemical weapons found were old expired artillery shells, build before the gulf war and already inert and without any military value. Saddam Hussein had no WMD programs. It had actually complied with all terms of the agreement and the invasion of Iraq was based on a lie. If the US was really open to self-criticism, the entire Bush cabinet, including Bush himself, would be in jail right now.

Thanks for the link to Why We Fight. I hadn't heard of it before.

You're right. US citizens are not well informed. But in their (our) defense I would say that the world is a really complicated place these days. I find it tough to know what is the right thing to do about, e.g., health care. The right thing for the next 10 years might not be the right thing for my grandchildren. So we trust our elected leaders. Regarding the second Iraq war I recall thinking that there was, or at least seemed to be, a lot of circumstantial evidence. I personally wanted to go to Iraq and look around for myself but that didn't work out. Worse, I thought that Hussein was a real SOB akin to Hitler. Who didn't? And of course neither our citizens nor our leaders can predict the future. Iraq-2 was a huge mistake because of the insurgency. Perhaps we should have seen that coming, but I don't recall anyone saying that invading Iraq would result in an insurgency.

"Lie" is a really strong word.

Today we all have the benefit of hindsight. But how fair is it to base criticism on hindsight?

Bob

 

[ajoknoblauch]

So we trust our elected leaders. Regarding the second Iraq war I recall thinking that there was, or at least seemed to be, a lot of circumstantial evidence. I personally wanted to go to Iraq and look around for myself but that didn't work out. Worse, I thought that Hussein was a real SOB akin to Hitler. Who didn't? And of course neither our citizens nor our leaders can predict the future. Iraq-2 was a huge mistake because of the insurgency. Perhaps we should have seen that coming, but I don't recall anyone saying that invading Iraq would result in an insurgency.

"Lie" is a really strong word.

Today we all have the benefit of hindsight. But how fair is it to base criticism on hindsight?

Bob

Bush and his hacks all lied, flagrantly. Lots of people predicted Iraq would be ungovernable, especially by incompetents like the Bushies.

Saddam went along with it, though, because the fiction of WMDs was his only chance of staying in power.

 

[Rich One]

I don't think the "Italian" food you can find here is from the South. Now that you make me think about it:

• Raviolis, they are typical of Piemonte and Emilia Romagna
• Linguinis, fettucinis, lasagnas and fresh pasta is typical of Emilia Romagna
• Fainà, that's typical of Liguria (farinata) and can be found only in the area surrounding Genova, to be precise (including part of Alto Monferrato, which belongs to Piedmont)
• Fugazzeta, that comes from the ligurian "fugassa" (focaccia in plain Italian) and it is a Ligurian specialty.
• Tiramisù, that's from Veneto, in the North East.
• Pasta frolla, I don't know where it comes from, I'd say it is very similar to french pastry, so I am inclined to think it came from the North
• Pan dulce, that's a typical Christmas sweet made in Liguria.
• Pizza, yes, that originated in the South but I believe by the end of the 1800's it was widespread as pasta
• Parmigiana di melanzane, yes that's from the South
• Milanesa, that's from Lombardy or from Austria. There is a dispute on the origin of the plate, but don't forget that Milan, the Lombardy and Veneto were ruled by the Austrian for 50 years. Anyway, definitely not a plate from the South.

Where you thinking about something in particular? I think the hot blood is a very Latin trait, which South Italians, Spaniards and Northern African have in common. Don't forget that in the Mediterranean sea there was a lot of mix up of the centuries, Arabs coming to Sicily, Spain and Southern Italy, and backwards (esp. during the Roman empire). I can't really understand the hatred of Italians toward North African immigrants - some of them are physically identical!

I don't know who "imported" corruption first... it looks like the Roman society was already pretty corrupt, but I am no history buff.
About politicians in Argentina, Macri (I think it was originally Macrì, the accent got lost somehow) and the others, most of the Italian immigrants of the 1900's were from Calabria and Sicilia, so I don't see anything particularly alarming about so many people with Southern surnames in politics.

I looked up the surnames you mentioned and Franco is prevalent in Piedmont-Liguria, Francella is equally present in Lazio and Marche, Lanusse is not Italian, Macrì is of course Calabrian. About the handshake with "Palabra de calabrese" (in Spanish), I find pretty sad that italo-something really need to go back to their ancestor country to find some common ground, and that most of them rely on (negative) stereotypes. When I see restaurants called "Il Padrino" or "Corleone" with signs evoking the mafia movies, I don't know if they want to make fool of the non-Italians who "buy" into this sort of thing or if they themselves believe that's the height of Italianism.
On a side note: nobody affiliated with mafia would open a restaurant called "Il Padrino", so I am inclined to believe it is just marketing for people who don't know any better than them.

I personally don't identify with Southern Italian, and all of these italo-something initiatives found in BsAs are by and for people from there. Two block from here in San Isidro there is a Sardinian association that sing and dances to Sardinian songs in dialect... They invited me to join to make me feel home... but that's very VERY far from my Italian experience. And I don't know many people from the South of Italy who would identify themselves with these things nowadays. I remember reading about an Italian girl in Buenos Aires who said she rarely hangs out with italo-argentinians because they are stuck to weird stereotypes of Italians that get old very quick. I can't agree more.

Serafina, Thank you so much for such a comprehensive response so well researched...!

Italian restos here sell the food the customers want to eat even if the owners come from Sicily. My point was that the immigrants not only bring the food but their way of doing business like the Chinese here, didn't bring only the Food.

The Regional origin of the last names doesn't mean people originality form the North may have moved to the south and have those last names.