Soldiers who should face a firing squad before they die of natural causes

[Bajo_cero2]

I meant every word. I am not against the death penalty for certain crimes and those commited by Videla and his co-conspirators qualify. The death penalty can easily be justifed.

Perhaps, but we are not the same shit that they. The families of the victims fought at Cout for 30 years for sending this people to jail, where they deserve to be. And they are healling this country.

Assesinations began with the "fusilamientos de Jose Leon Suarez" made by the government against some peronistas and some people who was arrested because they were at the street walking. The violence just grew up, you know were violence begins but you don´t know were does it finishes.

Abuelas and Madres de Plaza de Mayo stopped this crazyness with peaceful methods. During the worst time of the dictadura they were the only ones with the courage for defiance Videla, walking around Plaza de Mayo, because during state of siege, it was forbiden for more than 3 people to be together in public places. Many of them were kidnaped, rape, torture and killed. Azucena Villaflor, the one who founded Madres was one of the victims.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azucena_Villaflor

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

What about Mario Firmenich? He's walking free --- his crimes are never discussed.

This is too one-sided. That's why I don't think this is about "justice," it's about selective vengeance. And feelings of hatred and vengeance don't help the nation heal.

You should be less ignorant. He was arrested and extradited from Brasil, he was condemned to 30 years of prision. Later Menem amnestied him.

Regards

 

[tomedison]

I lived in BA from May, 1975 to Jan, 1976. I am somewhat familiar with the history of the disappeareds, the Madres de la Plaza, AAA's Ford Falcons, etc. I recall Lopez Rega, head of AAA and Supremo Cabinet Minister saying that in order to defeat the "leftists" he was willing to kill 20,000 commies, 25,000 sympathizers and 5000 mistakes. Torturing innocent people for sport, then throwing them from airplanes, and harvesting newborn babies justifies death and not "perhaps" to my way of thinking. Jail time, so often under (luxury) house arrest, is not just desserts. And it does nothing to deter future despots.

Moreover, the entire estate of these scum ought to be liquidated to pay either damages to persons with provable claims (or their lawful heirs) with a large portion also being paid over to the national treasury. The heirs of the scum should not see a single peso.

In military justice systems I have to believe the death penalty exists for certain crimes, treason, etc. If so, the actions of high ranking military men who ordered these things is punishable by death as treason, but whether or not military justice incorporates a death penalty, the conduct of these scum justifies it. That the death penalty may not exist in Argentine law is an unfortnate circumstance that ought to be remedied.

 

[Amargo]

What is often not mentioned is that the military took power because ALMOST EVERYONE in Argentina wanted them to do so, the pueblo was with them. The situation was a disaster, with terrorists attacking and killing innocent colimbas, kidnapping civilians in order to get ramson geld, planting bombs and killing even children. The Army HAD to do something. Of course they went too far. Fighting the terrorists was not the mistake (after all the terrorists started the war), the methods employed were.
ERP and Montoneros were bands of criminals, with military training and war weapons, cold blooded killers. They were not the grannies you see walking around Plaza de Mayo. This is as true as it is that the military killed and tortured thousands of innocent people.

 

[Guillo]

What is often not mentioned is that the military took power because ALMOST EVERYONE in Argentina wanted them to do so, the pueblo was with them.

[Citation needed]

 

[jazrgz]

What is often not mentioned is that the military took power because ALMOST EVERYONE in Argentina wanted them to do so, the pueblo was with them. The situation was a disaster, with terrorists attacking and killing innocent colimbas, kidnapping civilians in order to get ramson geld, planting bombs and killing even children. The Army HAD to do something. Of course they went too far. Fighting the terrorists was not the mistake (after all the terrorists started the war), the methods employed were.
ERP and Montoneros were bands of criminals, with military training and war weapons, cold blooded killers. They were not the grannies you see walking around Plaza de Mayo. This is as true as it is that the military killed and tortured thousands of innocent people.

Exactly right ! but the problem here is that this is the land of double standards and hipocracy ! These ppl do not give a damn about the innocent ppl kidnapped, tortured and killed by the guerrillas, they only care about the victims of the military (this second concern is of course correct and again, everyone here agrees on this).
ERP and many other armed forces were straight up cold blooded killers and were in fact the ones starting this whole shit up in the first place but for some reason (their killings and other heroic actions of the sort not only acknowledged by themselves but also glorified), the way history was written, they are now seen as innocent long hair potheads that just wanted peace for the ppl !! guerrilleros=inncent kids=JOKE
Now, everyone here condemns the criminal acts of the military, even those who actually understand that without their intervention we would now be living under a comunist regime just like cuba (it´s also on the ERP´s declared goal, to impose, by the use of armed forces, a comunist regime). My quesiton is, those who defend the querrilla, i assume the also defend THEIR criminal acts ! im yet to find one of these guys saying, you know what, military criminals should be put to jail for life and guerrilla criminals should as well ! you will never hear that because to them, the latter crimes were not only justified but also fair and apparently well intended !...............again, DOUBLE STANDARDS !!!!
in the end, if you are a person who is tortured and killed, you really dont give a f*** who is doing this to you (or a loved one or anyone for that matter), you just want the ppl responsible to at least rot in jail ! (this goes to those who say that guerrilla crimes were just COMMON CRIMES ??????????? but military were horrible ones when in fact is the SAME HORRIBLE CRIME !!! )

 

[Amargo]

[Citation needed]

I think the best source could be your parents or someone older in your family who was an adult at that time. Today almost everyone would deny having supported the coup (at least en público). But most people did (not implying that your relatives supported the coup, but they will surely know how massive the support was).
Otherwise works by Luis Alberto Romero, Félix Luna...read the archives of the newspapers.

 

[clooz]

You have to be a troll. Nobody is that stupid.

Well put.

We are all aware that there is a form of news-entertainment programming that is used in broadcasting, where two or three people are brought in to provide disagreeing opinions about a topic in the news. We have become used to this disconnected claiming and combative position taking.

The initial response by random starts in the same style. It reads "I disagree. I don't think those trials serve any useful purpose, except the cynical political purpose of ..."

Subsequent posts are framed by this initial exchange. Framing is critical to how discussions evolve.

That first response that labelled people cynical was disrespectful and stridently offensive to those with a legitimate interest in the trial. It does not seem that it was malicious at the outset, but it was intentionally negligent in its disregard for the offense it could cause.

We used to have so many words to call to account people who were acting in socially thoughtless ways - words such as gormless, feckless, cretinous, numbskulls, lunatics, dolts. Political correctness came along, and we lost some of our traditional skills at telling people their actions were socially unacceptable.

Its good to see people called to account, and disappointing to not yet see an apology. Freedom of expression is undermined when it is abused. Abuse without self-regulation leads to external regulation and then censorship.

 

[LAtoBA]

Everyone seems to be having a go at Videla and company but from the little I know of Argentine history I seem to remember that the communist insurgents/terrorists they were fighting committed their fair share of atrocities and crimes as well - I might have read this thread and got the wrong end of the stick here but I don't see how justice can be applied to one side and not the other...

I'm afraid you did get the wrong end of the stick. This thread has been hijacked by those wanting to inject there own political leanings / beliefs into a thread, that from what I can gather (at least from the original post) was never intended to convey the message that only the military should be convicted for their crimes.

In fact from the original post it is almost impossible to extrapolate the poster's opinions on leftist terrorists or the military. What one is able to infer is that he/she is merely disgusted by the documented rape, torture, executions and abductions of Argentine citizens by some members of the military. That is all. But that does not tell us whether they believe in selective justice or justice for all.

This thread seemed to take a turn to nowhere ever since then. Someone suggested that the victims of these atrocities just "move on" and "forget" that it ever happened, which is in my opinion a fairly absurd statement to make. The essence of his statement and others in this thread has been if others on the left haven't been fairly prosecuted then why should these soldiers? If the soldiers in question (ie in reference to the article that was posted in this thread) were guilty of the alleged crimes, I do not understand the incessant interjection of politics into this debate and how this became a left vs. right issue.

If people felt the need to argue about the atrocities committed between both sides then that should've been taken to a different thread. But to encroach on justice and suggest that these men be left alone or exonerated simply because "the other side" wasn't punished is illogical, incomprehensible and unjust.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

ERP and many other armed forces were straight up cold blooded killers and were in fact the ones starting this whole shit up in the first place but for some reason (their killings and other heroic actions of the sort not only acknowledged by themselves but also glorified), the way history was written, they are now seen as innocent long hair potheads that just wanted peace for the ppl !! guerrilleros=inncent kids=JOKE

The one who started the violence were the militars with the bombing of Plaza de Mayo when it was full of people. Later the police shoot prisioners in Jose Leon Suarez. First military action of Montoneros was to kidnap the responsible of thouse murders, to trial him, and shoot him.

The crimes commited by ERP or Montoneros were crimes for sure. But they where a few. They were condemned and they were sentence to over 20 years of jail. They stayed there until Menem Amnestied them.

The difference is that Videla had 100.000 cops under his command, judges, he was able to write laws, he controled the tv, and he has under his command many thousans military and paramilitary. So he has the power to make a large-scale harm and he did it.

Is it the same Mc Donalds selling hamburgers than if I start a hamburger busisness tomorrow?

I give you an example, do you know what is a zona liberada? The paramilitars organized the police in order to have an area free of police. This way they were able to kidnap people.

Later during democracy they used terrorist tactics to avoid the criminal prosecution. Their main targets for bombs were primary schools.

And the crimes that they commited are still happening. That´s the huge difference. Abduction of babies continues until the victim recovers his real identity and the desaparecidos are found.

If you want to compare the guerrilleros with Videla, I can tell you, the guerrilleros were amateurs.

Want another example? where is Julio Lopez?
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Julio_López
It happend in 2006.
Regards