Villa Soldati - Are you watching?
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perry
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I do not agree that people should squat on public land just because they can . I believe that anarchy is the new face of Argentina if the society allows this to happen .
In regards to immigration and poverty there must be balance as always . Argentinians are entitled to live in a city of low crime and good standards . Allowing unfettered entry for all and sundry is a cataylst for huge social problems in the future. This is not rascism but realism .
There is too much entry into Buenos Aires atm from the poor of neighbouring societies and the fact is being here is not helping their situation as the cost of living here as well as the overstrechted services are collapsing from the demand.
I do worry for my and our future as we are in the midst of a social experiment that can have drastic consequences if left unchecked.
In regards to immigration and poverty there must be balance as always . Argentinians are entitled to live in a city of low crime and good standards . Allowing unfettered entry for all and sundry is a cataylst for huge social problems in the future. This is not rascism but realism .
There is too much entry into Buenos Aires atm from the poor of neighbouring societies and the fact is being here is not helping their situation as the cost of living here as well as the overstrechted services are collapsing from the demand.
I do worry for my and our future as we are in the midst of a social experiment that can have drastic consequences if left unchecked.
MizzMarr
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When I briefly weighed in yesterday I inadequately expressed my ignorance on the matter which was better voiced by Mini and ElHombre, thank you both for putting that into words. My limited experience with the park is that it is not a true green space, but this definition may signify a cultural divide. I certainly meant no offense, but it was a first person observation and not viewed via the television.
The lack of firsthand experience and in depth understanding definitely accounts for the silence of many on the forum. I believe that for most of us here this is the first time we've ever witnessed anything of this kind. It certainly is for me. I know that in spite of my immersion or first hand understanding of what is happening here, I feel very concerned for the people involved and what is at stake. K_Crimini, I really appreciate your contributions and honesty in this conversation, the level of detail that you have added from first hand experience is both enlightening and appalling (but please, don't cast judgment on those of us here who were initially discussing the subject as sickening "navel gazers", it's attitude like that which makes people withdraw from the conversation and worse. that said, I do empathize with the emotional place you are coming from--the whole situation is stomach churning).
The fact that your neighbors have confessed off record of murdering villeros is both frightening and indicative of the lack of justice and true scope of the social problems here, in addition to what is at stake in the future of this country. The lack of international coverage (I, too, realized last night that there was no English language media coverage on what was happening here) combined with the fact that Macri needed to write a letter (!) to Cristina to get her attention on the matter are all huge red flags that nobody knows what to do and that this issue will continue to escalate into further dangerous territory.
Unfortnately I don't feel like I can say anything to meaningfully contribute, or do anything but watch this unfold. All I can express is that my heart goes out to the innocents involved here who are doing what they can to work hard towards a better life. The racism, violence and lack of real solution are heartbreaking and deeply unsettling. Thanks to all contributors who are bringing perspective and information here to this discussion.
The lack of firsthand experience and in depth understanding definitely accounts for the silence of many on the forum. I believe that for most of us here this is the first time we've ever witnessed anything of this kind. It certainly is for me. I know that in spite of my immersion or first hand understanding of what is happening here, I feel very concerned for the people involved and what is at stake. K_Crimini, I really appreciate your contributions and honesty in this conversation, the level of detail that you have added from first hand experience is both enlightening and appalling (but please, don't cast judgment on those of us here who were initially discussing the subject as sickening "navel gazers", it's attitude like that which makes people withdraw from the conversation and worse. that said, I do empathize with the emotional place you are coming from--the whole situation is stomach churning).
The fact that your neighbors have confessed off record of murdering villeros is both frightening and indicative of the lack of justice and true scope of the social problems here, in addition to what is at stake in the future of this country. The lack of international coverage (I, too, realized last night that there was no English language media coverage on what was happening here) combined with the fact that Macri needed to write a letter (!) to Cristina to get her attention on the matter are all huge red flags that nobody knows what to do and that this issue will continue to escalate into further dangerous territory.
Unfortnately I don't feel like I can say anything to meaningfully contribute, or do anything but watch this unfold. All I can express is that my heart goes out to the innocents involved here who are doing what they can to work hard towards a better life. The racism, violence and lack of real solution are heartbreaking and deeply unsettling. Thanks to all contributors who are bringing perspective and information here to this discussion.
Keep voting the KKs and you will feed the problem. As soon as poor people from the provinces and neighbouring countries hear that they are getting houses for free in BA they will start flowing in even greater numbers to the city.
The problem should be tackled (poverty, unemployment, etc) and not the effects. Even if it is painful at the beginning. Invest instead this 'propaganda' money in education, FAIR redistribution to the provinces, infrastructure and give those who invest and CREATE jobs a solid base (justice, defense of public and private property) to make business.
Socialism à la Cuba, Bolivia, Venezuela is dead. Do you want us to be like that? We are falling and falling, look at the last PISA results...and worst, look at the reaction of the MINISTER OF EDUCATION, looking for reasons why the test shouldn't be taken seriously. Without admitting there is a problem...how in the World can you solve it?
MissMarr, I'm sure it wasn't a confession, but certainly an admission to the us vs. them attitude and an admission that he condoned the act - not only that, but that he assumed my boyfriend would as well.
I have to agree on a certain level with Perry. The country is comparatively rich when measured against Bolivia or Paraguay, but there are not enough social services to handle those living here already. If we set the notion of racism aside (of which there is certainly a good deal), there is still the problem that the social services that exist are not equipped to deal with the poorer citizens here, much less people from outside.
However, I can say that as for any of us here, we can always leave, so that makes us feel that we have no right to participate in this discussion. But even as we criticize the Argentine government, we cast judgement on a society different from the ones we came from and I can say, at least for the US, we are dealing with many of the same issues, though perhaps not as extreme at the moment, so we all probably have a good deal to draw on in terms of information and history as it applies to this situation.
Also, the way I talk is the way I talk, so I'm going to ignore any more criticisms of my personal style. I will just say this. As it turns out, mini and I know each other and when she found out that it was me who said the things I said, she said she could totally imagine me saying them. If I am to meet any of you in the future, you'll see that I am given to exaggeration and strong opinion and am more expressive than your average Estadounidense. I am a heathen and if you meet me, you'll probably like me, but I'm not apologizing for the way I express myself -- we're all big boys and girls and you can handle it.
I have to agree on a certain level with Perry. The country is comparatively rich when measured against Bolivia or Paraguay, but there are not enough social services to handle those living here already. If we set the notion of racism aside (of which there is certainly a good deal), there is still the problem that the social services that exist are not equipped to deal with the poorer citizens here, much less people from outside.
However, I can say that as for any of us here, we can always leave, so that makes us feel that we have no right to participate in this discussion. But even as we criticize the Argentine government, we cast judgement on a society different from the ones we came from and I can say, at least for the US, we are dealing with many of the same issues, though perhaps not as extreme at the moment, so we all probably have a good deal to draw on in terms of information and history as it applies to this situation.
Also, the way I talk is the way I talk, so I'm going to ignore any more criticisms of my personal style. I will just say this. As it turns out, mini and I know each other and when she found out that it was me who said the things I said, she said she could totally imagine me saying them. If I am to meet any of you in the future, you'll see that I am given to exaggeration and strong opinion and am more expressive than your average Estadounidense. I am a heathen and if you meet me, you'll probably like me, but I'm not apologizing for the way I express myself -- we're all big boys and girls and you can handle it.
For those living outside Argentina:
http://www.tn.com.ar/sociedad/12654...-y-ningun-detenido?autoplay=true&video=126549
http://www.tn.com.ar/sociedad/12654...-y-ningun-detenido?autoplay=true&video=126549
Davidglen77
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Does anybody here come from New York City and remember Tompkins Square Park on the lower east side? I remember when it was taken over by the homeless and the result of the police coming in and the riots that followed. It was unreal. However since the cops and the mayor didn´t give in the the illegal occupiers, they eventually were driven out. If any of you happen to be in NYC anytime soon, take a look at Tompkins Square now, it's beautiful.
PVG1975 said:
This happens all the time in Latin America. Argentina is lucky that it doesn't happen more. Compared to other countries, Argentina has it easy in this regard.
Not that I am calling this situation easy.
As to people saying that they need to build public houses in the park, how do you plan to do that? With what money are you going to build it with? And how will people living in villas with little to no income be able to afford living there?
There are so many different things under this one issue. People living in villas without access to basic services. A lack of jobs even for skill Argentine workers, and almost no jobs for immigrants from other countries in South America, legal or illegal.
Pushing these people out of the park will not solve anything. I'm not saying not to do it, but it's just a matter of time before this all boils up to the surface again. Pushing the people out of the park and back into the villas will only delay the problem. Maybe they won't go back into the park again, but it's just a matter of time until something else big happens.
And the underlying cause is still going to be there regardless of what they do about the park. The bad thing is, that this is a very hard thing to fix, and I'm sure that K_Crimini will agree with me on this.
What will the government do about crime? It's not as simple as putting police in the area. These people need water and electricity and access to good education and health services. I should clarify, that the Argentines and immigrants living in the villas are entitled to these things. I believe that the only way to help fix this problem is to send the illegals back to their own countries, but I know this is not going to happen.
And the bigger problem is, that even if the government wanted to fix these problems (CFK's government thrives on these people in the villas, so don't expect her to do anything), I seriously doubt that Argentina would have the means to do it.
This is about so much more than people taking over a park.
K_Crimini said:
It's true. When I figured out who Crimi was I started laughing. I can totally picture it! It's amazing how different things are when we see the person speaking and hear their tone of voice, etc. (This is also why I wrote I'm sure Jared is probably more interesting in person!
)Anyway, as I said way up there I appreciate all the posts on this topic that help further understanding on this topic. And since I don't know enough to contribute anything useful, I will try not to take things personally anymore and try not to ask questions that are too stoopid.
va2ba said:
You are so right about this. The issues around this are many and complicated which I imagine is why it's so difficult to figure out the right thing to do. Whether the people come out of the park are not is a small part of a much bigger problem.
va2ba said:
I was actually quite surprised to hear that people in villas pay rent. Who are they paying rent? And that people are being asked to pay for the lots. Who are they "buying" these lots from?
Amargo said:
Who is getting a free house? Those people paid for lots in the park, to who we still don't know and have repeatedly said they want pay for houses of their own. Go back to 2005 when a law, yes a law, was passed mandating the urbanisation of villa 20 where most of these people are from. Not a single thing has been done in those years. We are almost at the end of the year and Macri has spent 12% of the housing budget (something similar to what he has done in education) and completed just 81 houses in the city.
Additionally a great problem of Mercosur's Patria Grande plan in Argentina is those arriving from other Mercosur countries find themselves in the same situation as expats - they cannot enter the normal real estate market as they cannot provide guarantees, obviously they can't afford the kind of short term arrangements expats enter into and they are thus forced into villas even when they have jobs. Inside numerous villas they are prey for organised people who control the real estate market and must pay enormously inflated prices to live a marginal existence in highly dangerous areas. Perhaps a few more people on this forum may be able to understand the anger and desperation of these people if they take a little time to read about the issues they face.
Amargo said:
Since 2003, pesos invested in education by the federal government: 1826 million
Schools built under federal funds 2003-2010: 1000+
Schools built under 10 years of Menem: 8
Schools built under 6 years of Alfonsin: 0
Education budget (as % of GDP) 2003: 3.64%
Education budget (as % of GDP) 2010: 6.02%
Additionally a new budget has been allocated to attempt to restore the state of technical schools in Argentina (182 were closed under Menem's presidency and the remainder were not allocated sufficient budgets to maintain and acquire machinery) of 800 million pesos.
