Who's considering it after thinking they would never...?

[DontMindMe]

This thread is really interesting. So many of you are veterans whose posts I remember reading wayyy back in my lurking days. I wish everyone the best of luck with their decision. I always felt a bit lucky in a sense that my boyfriend, though not from the same country as me, was not Argentine. I left, then he left very recently, five months later. We weren't married and don't have kids, but man, even for me, even as unhappy as I was in the end, it was a heartbreaking decision. Buenos Aires and Argentina will always have a place in my heart. That's probably why every time I think I've looked at this forum for the last time, I come back, just to see how things are going.

I went to a birthday party at a bar back home recently, and someone introduced me to a young woman who was about to move to Buenos Aires. I actually really dread these conversations, because while the last thing I want to do is rain on someone's parade, I am certainly realistic about what's going on in Argentina. She asked me why I left Buenos Aires, and despite her huge smile and bright eyes I very briefly gave her the four reasons I always give, in no particular order: The government, the economy, increasing crime, and not liking porteños as a group very much. (No offense to all of your spouses; I'm sure they're part of that group of exceptions that exists that I just didn't come in contact with enough. Also, nikad, you are so awesome.)

Her face fell a bit as I listed my reasons. Uh oh, I thought, She has an Argentine SO. Sure enough, she was moving down there to be with her fiancé, who incidentally was not porteño. It took every ounce of self control for my eyes not to bug out of my head. (The timing! So horrible!!) She had always found porteños to be warm and friendly, as you do when you meet your Argentine SO in the first few weeks of your first trip to Argentina. They have an apartment in Palermo. (Good, I thought, hopefully he's wealthy so he and his family can take care of you both when 2001 version 2.0 hits.) She didn't really have any job prospects. Her Spanish was okay. She had been reading the news; it was starting to make her nervous. When she asked me what she should take, I told her U.S. $10,000 in cash. "Seriously??" she replied. "Yes," I said. "I'm dead serious."

I had reached the point when I couldn't fake enthusiasm anymore, so I wished her the best. I couldn't help but wonder, what the hell is her fiancé thinking? But of course, there are so many Argentines who think, despite all of the problems, that Argentina is the greatest country in the world. I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same. I wondered if she'd discussed anything along those lines with her fiancé. I didn't say anything, though. She was a stranger, after all. It didn't feel right.

A note to allcraz-- An American friend married a porteño who is now living with her in Houston. He absolutely loves the city and the people and has no desire to go back to Argentina other than to visit, ever. He actually found a job months before she did, in IT. He was in his late 20s, spoke pretty good English, and has always loved traveling and learning about the world. But I think even he was surprised to love it as much as he did, right off the bat. His porteño family fell in love with it too, when they came to the U.S. the first time for the wedding. Now, he hadn't been dead set on living in Argentina the rest of his life before meeting my friend, but I though you might like to read that positive example anyway. Don't forget, there are plenty of Argentine immigrants in Texas. I run into them all the time. They have a consulate in Houston for a reason.

 

[nikad]

Nico,
I have lived here all my life, I am simply tired of the same old same old, not that anything is going to be impossible for you, it might even be challenging and lots of adrenaline for you guys!

It is scary when people, like you (citygirl, allcraz, etc), who have been here a long time (or are from here) are talking about things getting increasingly bad to the point that you guys are thinking about leaving.

Hopefully our plan (my wife's and mine) to stay here for another 2-3 years isn't going to be hell for us. We're in our mid 20s so I guess we can afford a mistake or two here and there.

Anyway, don't want to hijack allcraz's thread. I hope she and her husband figure something out for themselves. Good luck.

 

[ElQueso]

Don'tMindMe, I liked your post. Particularly where you said "I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same."

Allcraz, I was thinking almost exactly the same thing when I read your original post, I just didn't know if I should say it - I didn't want to offend anyone and this concept could be a little difficult to not take in an offensive manner if the writer isn't careful. I've had my moments where I didn't mean to offend someone and yet it came to that anyway. Don'tMindMe said it very well though.

Someone else had mentioned that just because you guys move there, it doesn't mean that you can't move back if things get too tough in whatever fashion.

I think Texas in particular, and Austin as the destination, is a great idea. In fact, it is exactly where I would move with my Paraguayan wife if we went to live in the States. Houston is not bad (I lived there for 30+ years!) but it's flat, hot, and humid (and worse than Buenos Aires for mosquitoes) and the culture is a little different (I'm not even sure I know how to explain it - politically correct in a Texas kind of way that Austin isn't, to me). Houston certainly has a lot of cultural things going on, all over, but there's something about Austin that's very special.

But back to him versus you - you came down here, away from your family and stayed with him - I shouldn't think it would be a great stretch for him to do the reverse. It's easy to say that, I know, but I'd think he'd be willing to try, and with the friendliness that mostly emanates from people in Texas, he should adjust on that account pretty quickly.

The job may be something else, but at least Texas has a good economy and I'd bet there would be opportunities. While he's looking and figuring out what he can do, he can improve his English and be ready to hit the ground running.

If you can afford the time and effort to get him a spouse visa, I'd say go for it.

As far as how some of us are feeling about leaving Argentina (BA in particular) - I'm caught in a similar web of uncertainty myself. Although I don't have young children here, my wife and I are responsible for a 16 year old (her sister) directly and her other brothers, sisters and cousins who live here indirectly. They would be lost without her as the anchor to keep them in line and happy.

My sister-in-law will graduate high school next year and we've already begun making the payments on her graduation trip with the school. She'd have to start all over in a new school, leave her friends, have to make new ones (although they would be Paraguayan and her case much easier to make friends with than she has found here) and all the adjustments that make things even more difficult for a teenager.

My wife and I both have friends of many nationalities (including Argentinos) here and we would as well have to start all over.

At the end of last year, it was pretty certain we were going to leave. Now, the Blue Dollar has allowed us to save enough money every month that costs feel more like 2008 prices to us than what locals are feeling. The biggest issues we have are twofold: 1) The government - are things going to get hairy here in terms of tyranny, or is the economy going to collapse quickly, or is it going to be a long drawn-out nightmarish process and 2) crime.

Crime has not affected me personally, but every other member of my family has been robbed, all but one more than once, and a couple at both gunpoint and knife point. However, I'm not sure that Paraguay would be much better in that regard - although we've never been robbed there (well, we haven't lived there either).

But the government concerns me here. People seem very naive at times - "ah, that will never happen again," "you're being paranoid - Argentina goes through these cycles and it's all going to get better, don't worry" etc, etc. Well, how many people get caught by surprise by things they didn't think could happen?

It's a tough, tough decision for many of us as to whether to stay or go. One my wife and I haven't finished making yet.

 

[earlyretirement]

Don'tMindMe,

You're post was excellent! I totally agreed with it.

I just had almost the same situation as you earlier this summer. A friend of a friend found out that I lived in Buenos Aires for many years and had a company there. So she wanted to meet up to pick my brain about Argentina (and it turns out inquire about a potential job).

I met her and her situation was almost exactly the same as yours. She only had been to Buenos Aires twice and she was on vacation and she met her boyfriend.

Like you, I didn't want to burst her bubble or be too negative but I felt I owed it to her or anyone else that is going to uproot their life to move down to Buenos Aires. You know what they say...sometimes "love truly is blind".

First I told this young girl all the positive aspects of the country, which mostly she already knew from visiting. It seemed love was her main motivation for moving there as her boyfriend already had a job and didn't think he could move to the USA permanently.

But then I started giving her all the negatives and her face started to change. She was shocked at many of the things I was explaining to her. She never had stepped foot in a grocery store, she never had to go to the post office to pick up a package, she never dealt with the day to day type stuff that comes from living in Argentina.

Many people are a bit naive and they figure that they had a great time on vacation when they visit and Buenos Aires is a big metropolitan city so things are going to be similar to big metropolitan cities anywhere else in the world.

It sounded like she was definitely going to move no matter what but I recommended she make a good game plan and really focus on a time line of how long she would stay there, what her goals were with her career and her potential relationship.

Most of the expats that I've met down there. Even the ones that have found a job, aren't making any significant amount of money. They make enough to basically live paycheck to paycheck and they aren't saving any significant amount of money for retirement.

At least in the USA, many companies have 401K type programs or other plans. What I've seen for the most part is people get stuck in a cycle there but they get stuck in the "live for today" type attitude that many Porteños have. The problem is I don't understand what many of them will do as they get older and more unemployable.

I think anyone that is going to uproot their lives to move down to Argentina has to really have their eyes open and really think about everything and have really strong discussions with their significant others about everything and the environment down in Argentina.

I tried not to be too negative with this girl but I really wanted to shake her and tell her not to do it. But I couldn't do that. But I could see she had NO clue about the true Argentina. She was stuck thinking about how things were when you were on vacation and coming down and being on vacation is different than living down there and dealing with hassles day in and day out.

 

[toulouse]

Wow! What a downer thread. I feel the need to give a slightly different perspective. I have lived in Argentina 6 years, I own 2 successful and profitable businesses (operating in the white and with many employees!), and I can afford to live anywhere in the world--but I still want to be here. I recently became a dual Argentine citizen (after having had my permanent residency for several years). Before I moved here, I did my homework and have had few surprises.

This is not to say that life is easy or without its problems here (or anywhere), but this talk about the US being so safe and the land of milk and honey makes me shake my head. I travel back to the US frequently and I feel no more or less safe in BsAs than I do in the US. I lived for many years in Washington, DC and the security issues in BsAs absolutely pale in comparison--trust me.

Yes, I am nervous about Cristina's changes and direction, but I'm also very concerned about the political changes in the US. The US is a very divided country with factions who can't even have a reasonable dialogue.

I would never say never, but I until that day comes, I vow to enjoy life here and make the best of it.

 

[allcraz]

Don'tMindMe, I liked your post. Particularly where you said "I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same."

Allcraz, I was thinking almost exactly the same thing when I read your original post, I just didn't know if I should say it - I didn't want to offend anyone and this concept could be a little difficult to not take in an offensive manner if the writer isn't careful. I've had my moments where I didn't mean to offend someone and yet it came to that anyway. Don'tMindMe said it very well though.

Not offended at all. The thing is, I didn't move here for him. I came here alone, met him, was happy, and we talked about our expectations before marriage. We saw our future here. But now we've moved onto the brainstorming stage and neither has made a decision. Neither is sure. It's not that I want to leave and he's saying no.

I am so happy to see the thread staying on topic, and I appreciate all the honest, thoughtful responses. I sometimes go through dry spells with this forum, but it is nice to know that I can bounce back and read some worthwhile text when it matters most. Thank you.

 

[allcraz]

This is not to say that life is easy or without its problems here (or anywhere), but this talk about the US being so safe and the land of milk and honey makes me shake my head. I travel back to the US frequently and I feel no more or less safe in BsAs than I do in the US. I lived for many years in Washington, DC and the security issues in BsAs absolutely pale in comparison--trust me.

Please let's not start the crime comparison. I won't even chime in here. It's been touched on so many times and I JUST posted saying how great it is that the thread has stayed on topic for those interested. I'm very happy that you have such a positive outlook.

 

[citygirl]

Wow! What a downer thread. I feel the need to give a slightly different perspective. I have lived in Argentina 6 years, I own 2 successful and profitable businesses (operating in the white and with many employees!), and I can afford to live anywhere in the world--but I still want to be here. I recently became a dual Argentine citizen (after having had my permanent residency for several years). Before I moved here, I did my homework and have had few surprises.

This is not to say that life is easy or without its problems here (or anywhere), but this talk about the US being so safe and the land of milk and honey makes me shake my head. I travel back to the US frequently and I feel no more or less safe in BsAs than I do in the US. I lived for many years in Washington, DC and the security issues in BsAs absolutely pale in comparison--trust me.

Yes, I am nervous about Cristina's changes and direction, but I'm also very concerned about the political changes in the US. The US is a very divided country with factions who can't even have a reasonable dialogue.

I would never say never, but I until that day comes, I vow to enjoy life here and make the best of it.

That's great and I wholeheartedly admire your perspective. As I said, I'm not leaving and not miserable. I do however want to respond to several of your points.

1) Many of us did our homework before moving here, you aren't unique in that.

2) I'm interested how you are running a business in white with many employees and don't face challenges. How are you handling the inflation and 20% annual raises and law suits and taxes? (That's a genuine question, not snarky.) I ran a succesful and profitable project here operated by a SRL that I set up that did millions of pesos in business a year but it was a really large headache, including getting sued more than once, paying huge amounts of taxes and having to pay a fortune to lawyers and accountants to stay current and without the ability to even get my profits out of the country or even convert them into dollars. I'm curious how you avoid those issues.

3) I can certainly say that I deal with security challenges here that I have NEVER dealt with anywhere else in the world. EJ: I frequently find stolen cars set on fire in front of my property. And frequent as in at least once a month. As for the rest, well, I can only say that when 90% of my friends and family have been a victim of some type of crime here, vs less than 10% of my friends in NY or DC or London or Paris, etc - well, my stats tell me there is a problem here. I'm glad you feel as safe here as anywhere else. I don't personally.

I don't think any of us posting here are doing so because we're trying to be downers or because we're miserable, bitchy expats. We have lives here, families, businesses, friends, children. So leaving (or talking about it) is a very hard decision.

Like i said, I'm not leaving or planning on it because my SO is here and due to the nature of his business, we're tied here. And I'm not miserable nor do I hate being here. I am trying to enjoy and let things go by. But the direction this gov't is going in scares the crap out of me personally. A gov't that examines your credit card statements, a gov't that sends the tax authorities after you if you dare criticize it, a gov't that nationalize industries, a gov't that restricts your ability to travel or exchange currencies, a gov't that makes running a business an almost impossibility, a currency in free fall, a black market, all these things scare me. I am affected by the issues and I do get scared about the idea of raising kids here.

 

[ghost]

Inirtia is the killer of progress. You are thinking seriously about this pending move because you are writing about it. Stop thinking and start planning. If the plan doesn't work then restart the thinking.
Think about this: You have a child on the way, do you think that child has a future in Argentina.??? Be honest.

 

[allcraz]

Think about this: You have a child on the way, do you think that child has a future in Argentina.??? Be honest.

Well, I think our child's future would certainly be different than it would be in the States, but I do not believe it would necessarily be a negative one. We are surrounded by a successful and tight group of family and friends here. My husband comes from a good circle, if I can call it that, which is another reason why the move would not be an easy choice. We would not be playing in the same social field in the States, so to speak. Compared to many, we have it pretty darn good here. But you can have it good and still wonder if you could have it better. The thing is, what's been good up until now has made up for the bad. I've been able to shrug off a lot of stuff. But the good's not getting better, and the bad is getting stronger, for lack of better terminology.