World Justice Project--La Nacion--Corruption, Etc

[Joe]

The US is truly becoming the Evil Empire (yes NSA, it's me again). But unfortunately, Argentina's problems are all of the self inflicted variety.

 

[Matiasba]

Matías, the cold war is over. Check it out how many left presidents you have in south América.

and precisely because of that they are spying, doing a huge internal job. Its ridiculous to think that because the cold war its over they magically stopped doing all the things they did, quiting their huge political power, renouncing to the enormous scope for action. In the 90s Argentina was the country that better followed their plans, politically, economically. Please google Washington Consensus, and you ll see Argentina was the better student of the region. And it had continuity with the dictatorship policies. The model is there, look both experiences, check out economic policies. During the 90s the US had their entire world under control. They consolidated their power, their work started along the XXth Century and paradoxically was the beginning of the end, since lot more populous countries copied their model and (now) have become super powers.

They still have a model for the region, they still have some countries were they govern, where they have over 40 military bases (like Mexico or Colombia). That corporation friendly model is what they want to impose here, and they have Macri as the politician to do that. Read http://storify.com/m...tti-a-alexis-lu

Honestly Bajo Cero I believed you more intelligent. Please read all the things the UK embassy did when the independence of Uruguay or the war against Paraguay, or the enormous lobby the German embassy did just to put Argentina on their side in the war with the militars, or the work they did to overthorow democratically elected governments all over the region, or even with Chavez in 2002.

So you stated that they have been working in the 60s and 70s and then they have stopped? as if they dont have any interests in the region? they just quitted to their enormous political power? they just gave it to someone else? they comitted that political suicide? how do you explain globalization? how do you think they link their ideas wiith the society? it is "normal" to you that 40 of the 60 channels you have in every cable operator are from the US? isnt that a way to spread ideas? arent the TV channels "traficantes de ideologia"? isnt Hollywood a huge industry based in that same interests they have world wide? do you know Noami Klein or Noam Chomsky? Do you know how they intervened in an enormous list of countries? and you think that because the cold war is over they just walked away from all those countries? do you read something of the US-China rivalries, in Africa, Latin America? Do you know that commerce with China have been growing despite the US will? Do you know why the US is still in Irak and Afghanistan, and has as allies Japan, Korea, Australia, etc? because they want to stop China!! they want to contain it. Hacer un cerco. They want China to be the country that it used to be with 600 million of farmers under the poverty line, with a relatively dead internal market, no industry, no internal demand... they just wanted for China the same that to Argentina, a country based on exports, an export type of country, with no industry, with no growth..... and of course, they do the exact oposite thing with the US economy, which expanded and expanded along the XXth century, a very strong and dynamic internal market with huge industry, with immigration.... so much they expanded that they colonized other countries such as Ecuador or Argentina (we all think in dollars when it comes to buying something important, and we are if I dont remember wrong like the 3rd country with US dollards in the world). That is expansion of their internal market, to conquer other countries with their currency.
Do you remember 2001? how the media talked of dollarization? do you think that happens by accident or theres a huge work of the US embassy?

 

[Matiasba]

There is conspiracy but in this case is local and clear: farmers. Nobody hides it.

Look. I ve studied this at a research at CONICET back in 2008.

The farmers do not rule the country anymore. It used to be like that all along the XXth century, the SRA, Jockey Club, The FFAA, etc, but since the oil crisis in 1970 after that the people with money in this country is not anymore linked to the campo. I mean, they still have money, (a lot now, with the soja, etc), una buena casona, but it represents less than the most important quantity of money. The people with power now are linked to the financial Capital.

Old rich: linked to the campo, live in Recoleta, in a lot more integrated society. Low profile. They ruled XXth.
New Rich: linked to Financial Capital, live in Puerto Madero, they are all for segregation. High profile (date models, drive Ferraris or Porsches or BMW)

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Matías, Colombians are free to vote whoever they want. The Soviet Unión or Cuba are neither interfering here anymore.
However, Colombia has a unique situation that is well known.

The soja bloom seems to give then power again. There was a block out remember? And this week they were insisting on giving up the retenciones while they also asserted that they could provide the usd the country needs...

Regarding 2001, with all my respect, i worked on the criminal investigation of former President De la Rua, Mestre, Mathov and the police officers and agents involved on the homicides of that day.

De la Rua and Cavallo didn t need help of an international conspiracy.

It is true that whoever follows IMF recomendations go into bunkrupcy, so what?

However, we don t have to agree.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

"New Rich: linked to Financial Capital, live in Puerto Madero, they are all for segregation. High profile (date models, drive Ferraris or Porsches or BMW)...."

...are linked to FpV corruption, representatives of Campora Clientelismo Capitalism. drug gangs and illegal money transfers. Famous alumni include Mssrs Baez y Farino amongst others.

The fog is lifting Matias.

 

[Matiasba]

"New Rich: linked to Financial Capital, live in Puerto Madero, they are all for segregation. High profile (date models, drive Ferraris or Porsches or BMW)...."

...are linked to FpV corruption, representatives of Campora Clientelismo Capitalism. drug gangs and illegal money transfers. Famous alumni include Mssrs Baez y Farino amongst others.

The fog is lifting Matias.

Public (I mean from every government) corruption is only like 5% of corruption. The private corruption is waaaaaaaay more bigger than the public one. Our political class sucks and they surely are all ladrones, but our clase empresaria is as corrupted as them. Creation of "empresas fantasma", tax evasion, puentes with Uruguay, they all are very corrupted and are always against any taxes (they consider all unfair). They are against the State, against the idea of a State.

Clase empresaria are much bigger in number than clase politica. And they are not investigated like the political class. The political class must be low profile, in fact despite some exceptions they are, cause everybody knows where the money comes from. And they are both very corrupted. Clase empresaria was in the power (I mean, they had explicit political power) during the 90s, the most important people of big corporations occupied important charges in economy ministery, for example. They created Convertibilidad (1 peso = 1 dollar) and took multimillionaire debt. It ended with the worst crisis this country ever had, with 53% under the poverty line, 25% unemployment, almost no industry, violence, riots, etc.
The 90s model was entirely for the companies, they did EVERYTHING the US embassy wanted: privatization, no inflation, take debt, small State, big bussiness with pensions, etc.
Today with the Ks they are furious cause other people, different people now in power, from another extraction, oposed to them ideologically, require taxes.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

How do you measure public corruption since most of it is unknown?

Your main problem, if you'll forgive me for labelling it as that, is labelling the world in black and white and dividing it up accordingly.

It reminds me of talking to someone recently about the disgusting state of bosques de palermo on a Sat/Sun morning. I mentioned that the "evening adult entertainment" business should be moved out of the park to somewhere with no kids and families exposed to biohazards. No, it's Macri's fault, he should be cleaning up after them. Incredible, everyone should be allowed to do everything and the city govt (no responsibility nationally, with changes in laws etc) should deal with the fall out. The first instinct is to look to the playbook of things the oppostion does wrong everytime. Even in the face of the crushingly obvious...you could fill that park with bins, and there are bins currently, and the folks off their faces on whatever and paying for whatever illicit services would not be inclined to go round cleaning up after themselves. Legalise and control....but no, Macri is a hdp because he doesn't make a bin forest in the park and send the cleaners at 5am then 7am then 9am every morning.

It just comes off as propaganda, scripted opportunity to attack the other side. Clarin, btw, are guilty of the same anti govt propaganda. You have swallowed the propaganda that the only alternative to the current protectionist model is some bogeyman you have labelled as "neo-liberalism", it is stopping you from thinking about nuances and differences or common ground which would allow progress.

It's black and white, zero sum thinking. It's comfortable and allows us to retreat behind the barricades and shout scripted accusations. Argentina will remain a constant international underachiever (based on resources available) until it can reconcile social inclusion and social mobility with free movement of capital and labour and rule of law. Neither should be exclusive.

 

[Matiasba]

Matías, Colombians are free to vote whoever they want. The Soviet Unión or Cuba are neither interfering here anymore.
However, Colombia has a unique situation that is well known.

The soja bloom seems to give then power again. There was a block out remember? And this week they were insisting on giving up the retenciones while they also asserted that they could provide the usd the country needs...

Regarding 2001, with all my respect, i worked on the criminal investigation of former President De la Rua, Mestre, Mathov and the police officers and agents involved on the homicides of that day.

De la Rua and Cavallo didn t need help of an international conspiracy.

It is true that whoever follows IMF recomendations go into bunkrupcy, so what?

However, we don t have to agree.

do you heard of "eje del pacifico", do you know how the US embassy is doing in those countries? and with Lugo in Paraguay? do you know there are military bases from the US in Paraguay? And in Peru, and in Colombia? Do you know Brazilian President (ni mas ni menos) cancelled a visit to the US because of spying? did you ever read some of the wikileaks or heard something from Snowden?


It hasnt to be Cuba or the Soviet Union to have intelligence in other countries. Its just politics.

 

[John.St]

do you heard of "eje del pacifico", do you know how the US embassy is doing in those countries? and with Lugo in Paraguay? do you know there are military bases from the US in Paraguay? And in Peru, and in Colombia? Do you know Brazilian President (ni mas ni menos) cancelled a visit to the US because of spying? did you ever read some of the wikileaks or heard something from Snowden?


It hasnt to be Cuba or the Soviet Union to have intelligence in other countries. Its just politics.

- and CIA is behind the earthquakes and always has been. Matias, you really provide entertainment.

 

[Matiasba]

How do you measure public corruption since most of it is unknown?

Your main problem, if you'll forgive me for labelling it as that, is labelling the world in black and white and dividing it up accordingly.

It reminds me of talking to someone recently about the disgusting state of bosques de palermo on a Sat/Sun morning. I mentioned that the "evening adult entertainment" business should be moved out of the park to somewhere with no kids and families exposed to biohazards. No, it's Macri's fault, he should be cleaning up after them. Incredible, everyone should be allowed to do everything and the city govt (no responsibility nationally, with changes in laws etc) should deal with the fall out.

It just comes off as propaganda, scripted opportunity to attack the other side. Clarin, btw, are guilty of the same anti govt propaganda. You have swallowed the propaganda that the only alternative to the current protectionist model is some bogeyman you have labelled as "neo-liberalism", it is stopping you from thinking about nuances and differences or common ground which would allow progress.

It's black and white, zero sum thinking. It's comfortable and allows us to retreat behind the barricades and shout scripted accusations. Argentina will remain a constant international underachiever (based on resources available) until it can reconcile social inclusion and social mobility with free movement of capital and labour and rule of law. Neither should be exclusive.

Look, if you get the black and white thing from my possts, I am clearly not doing it right.

I said many times here, that I dont like that much this government. Really. In fact I never, in 5 elections in the last 10 years, voted for them. But I prefer them to other projects.
Massa when he left Kircchnerismo, according to wikileaks started to visit the US embassy. They promissed things as he did last week with la mesa de enlace (eliminating taxes to the campo people). Macri is a corporation guy, very linked to the private sphere. Private school, private university, private health, privatizations, small state. That is neo liberal. macri supported Menem. And his father, with his economic group, took debt in dollars in the last dicctatorship and then traspassed it to the state. The Macri Group, hence, supported the last dictatorship. I worked with Macri, for a year. I know what he wants, what country he wants. His model is the country we had in the 90s. Which was a poverty factory.

So Massa and Macri I dont like, Macri is more right wing than Massa, but both are right.
Then we have Scioli. Or Capitanich. Both centre right. Capitanich linked to the Opus Dei. They wont have the chance to become president because the Kirchnerissmo ends in 2015. Maybe the next elecction, but I guess Crisstina will be there.

So, the people I like, that dont like this government but respect a lot of measures, AUH, Subsidios, social plans in general, credits, taxes, carta organica del BCRA and lots of other that I dont remember like gay marriage, have today a growing representation.

I vote(d) always for the left, I like Zamora, Altamira, Lozano.... last election together they got like 10% (it used to be much less, like 2%)... thats where I stand, criticizing some things of the model, knowing who is who in Argentine politics, the background everyone has, and respecting the good things. Industry 2003-2013 grew 7,5% and in the 90s (1989-1999) 1,5%. Hard data. Unemployment 25% to 7%. Nobody discuss this number from INDEC. Poverty, theres still much to do, but some indicators gone up.

So its not white/black to me. Its just that today we have two big, huge fields, with journalists, politicians, actors, people in general etc, etc, controversy, and all that and if I had to choose I know in which side Im in.