Yay - After 10 Years We're Planning On Leaving Argentina

[camberiu]

You're right, there is no comparison. Brazil left Argentina behind a while ago.

We can always catch up to them. Dilma is working really hard on that right now.

 

[sleslie23]

We can always catch up to them. Dilma is working really hard on that right now.

True. Any country has some potential to realize their inner Argentina. If it is nothing else, the Argentine politico-economic model serves as a cautionary tale.

 

[camberiu]

True. Any country has some potential to realize their inner Argentina. If it is nothing else, the Argentine politico-economic model serves as a cautionary tale.

Yes, I think a lot of people are really worried about. The fear of Argentinization by Brazilian economists and public have been existing for a while. This is an articlefrom 2014, before Dilma's re-election:

"[font=Helvetica Neue']In the case Rousseff is re-elected, Fonseca said one possibility would be a learning curve, whereby the president would acknowledge her administrative mistakes and work on correcting them, moving back towards the tripod and creating the conditions for private sector investment in infrastructure. Another scenario would be the prevalence of a “I did so well they re-elected me” line of thinking and the ensuing “Argentinization” of Brazil, culminating in a financial crisis."[/font]

She followed option #2.
So yes, a lot of people see the situation in Argentina as a major cautionary tale, which is ironic as Argentina is a country that grew accustomed to being the "role model" for the region. And as the situation in Brazil deteriorates, the parallels will become stronger.

If Dilma continues this way, Brazil will become Argentina
Will Brazil turn into Argentina?
In four years Brazil will become Argentina
The risk of us turning into a huge Argentina
Inflation: Can Brazil become Argentina?

 

[Matiasba]

You're right, there is no comparison. Brazil left Argentina behind a while ago.

it depends how you measure it. Concerning industry or the size of its market, perhaps, but if you want to know the quality of life of its citizens, how they live, security, poverty, development in general, mobility, gini coeficients and a whole other lot of social indicators, Argentina is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Brazil.

 

[andesmandes]

Sorry but Brazil is a total mess. Friendly people, yes. Wonderful landscapes, yes. Beautiful women, yes. But what an unsafe chaotic place.

 

[TrevorCito]

Perhaps. But the fear of an "Argentinization" is very palpable. It has become a rally cry, where people point to Argentina and say "we are next" or "that is what awaits us".

Brazil is hardly an example of a great place to live for many brazilians. It's bleak, but I take their point.

If history tells us what the future will be like then what will Argentina be like in say 10 or 20 years? Will there be less corruption? Will the economy strengthen? Will it be safer? Will the judiciary be more independent?

 

[camberiu]

it depends how you measure it. Concerning industry or the size of its market, perhaps, but if you want to know the quality of life of its citizens, how they live, security, poverty, development in general, mobility, gini coeficients and a whole other lot of social indicators, Argentina is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Brazil.

I have no idealized image of Brazil and neither do I ever try to sell one to other people. Brazil is a developing nation plagued with extremely high crime rates, endemic corruption, bureaucracy, lacking infrastructure and a chaotic urban environments. You will never see me claim otherwise.

That being said, in the areas that you have indicated, Argentina is not "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Brazil". That is a myth that Argentines who deny reality, such as yourself, like to perpetuate. It was true once, but today is pretty much at parity. It is a little better in some areas, a little worse in others. But overall is about the same.

Births attended by qualified medical staff: Back in 1991, only 70% of the birth in Brazil had the involvement of qualified medical staff, versus 95% in Argentina. Today both countries are in parity at 98%.
Child mortality rate: Back in 1970, Brazil had a child mortality rate of 132 per 1,000, versus 72 per 1,000 in Argentina. Today both countries are at parity at 14 per 1,000.
Life Expectancy: Back in 1960, it was 55 years in Brazil and 65 in Argentina. Today it is 76 in Argentina versus 73 in Brazil. And the averages in Brazil are skewed because of urban violence. If you factor out violent deaths, Brazil has actually a higher life expectancy than Argentina.
Education: Argentina was once THE reference for basic education in Latin America. That is gone. On the latest survey published published by the OECD, that ranks education systems based on the average reading, math and science scores of its students, Argentina ranks at 62. Brazil ranks at 60, ahead of Argentina.

Let's not forget that Brazil is a country with 5 times the population of Argentina, almost 4 times the geographical area, and a much more dispersed and heterogenic population.

Now, in terms of urban violence and crime, I have no argument. You can't even begin to compare the two countries. The most crime ridden place in Buenos Aires is probably safer than the safest place in Rio or Sao Paulo. In terms of crime and violence, Argentina is waaaaaay better than Brazil. Will it still be like that 10-15 years from now if the trend continues? We'll see.
On the other hand, in terms of political institutions, juridical stability and checks and balances over the state, as bad as Brazil is, it is waaaaay better than Argentina.

I think is past the time of Argenties stop living in a dream land where you project the glories of the past into the present, and start working to fix your country.

 

[TrevorCito]

I think is past the time of Argenties stop living in a dream land where you project the glories of the past into the present, and start working to fix your country.

Ouch - the truth does sting a bit!

I'd love to see this place fixed but I don't see it happening. Corruption at all levels of government and a breakdown of judicial powers is really concerning so my expectation is that life will become harder for Argentines, not easier.

 

[sleslie23]

it depends how you measure it. Concerning industry or the size of its market, perhaps, but if you want to know the quality of life of its citizens, how they live, security, poverty, development in general, mobility, gini coeficients and a whole other lot of social indicators, Argentina is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Brazil.

No doubt Brazil has problems. The difference is that Brazil seems to want to improve its situation while Argentina want to follow Venezuela into the abyss.

 

[TrevorCito]

No doubt Brazil has problems. The difference is that Brazil seems to want to improve its situation while Argentina want to follow Venezuela into the abyss.

Apparently Chavez advised Christina how to rule a country and keep power. Give them enough to live but not enough to grow because when they do, control will be lost. Does anybody know if this is true? Is there a quote someplace?