Another Train Crash

[ARbound]

BBC Article for those who don't like Google Translate/still need help with their Spanish (like me)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24595870

 

[Gringoboy]

So they're not telling CFK.
Presumably that means she's living in a darkened room without a portable transistor radio?
I can only deduce that they 'say' they're not telling her as she might get a little upset.
Yeah right, like how she got so upset about the other tragedy at Once.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Public transportation, fare is $2.20ar: 50 cents. Kind of tough to maintain a service even with the subsidies. Doubt the fare even covers wages and the minute anyone suggests an increase in fares to upgrade and improve service, all hell breaks loose: burn the trains. You get the government you deserve and get what you pay for. Now hang me in hell.

You're presuming that most of the passengers are in fact paying. The last several times I've ridden on the Mitre line to Tigre, there's not been anybody bothering to check at either end.

 

[ElQueso]

You're presuming that most of the passengers are in fact paying. The last several times I've ridden on the Mitre line to Tigre, there's not been anybody bothering to check at either end.

My wife tells me no one buys tickets on the trains (well, very small percentage) and no one checks.

We went across town recently (in fact, the only time I've ever ridden the train here) and we bought tickets. We left from Retiro. There was almost no one buying tickets but there were a lot of people heading into the terminal and going straight for the trains (it was outbound rush hour on a weekday). Once on the train I was talking to her about this and people all around us were hearing what I was saying and sniggering at it.

The train was crowded - many more people standing than sitting and I felt squished (that's why I bought a car - public transportation is fine, but I like my personal space - and my personal valuables). No one was going to check for tickets - impossible.

I doubt very much the trains would run any better under national management. It takes a lot of money to maintain trains and pay the operating and personnel expenses and I think the government has other problems on its mind right now.

There are so many problems wrapped up in why the trains are poorly maintained and dangerous, all having to do with lack of money getting to where it needs to be. Corruption is the key, private or public, and no one really being held responsible (up to and including allowing the union to overwhelm any safety procedures and requirements) for what matters.

And it will stay this way as long as the people continue to tolerate it. That includes the people who think that public transportation should be "free", which seems to be the majority of the people here. A lack of people paying taxes (and I understand why - with such a corrupt government who really thinks their money is well-spent? but that doesn't excuse them not paying to get on a train and using a service directly when money is supposedly required), a lack of people paying when they get on the train. No enforcement. Powerful unions with high-paid employees. No money left for maintenance and operations. And so on and so forth.

The people don't want to pay anything and they aren't forced to.

If a private corporation did not receive subsidies (of course, it isn't really private if it receives subsidies, is it? Isn't it more of a client, particularly because the government also controls the price?), it would make sure it collected money for its operations. If it was held accountable for accidents, it would make sure that its drivers were awake and paying attention, even if a camera with a watcher was needed. It would spend at least the minimum money necessary for important maintenance. And so on.

Oh, but wait! I forgot. The government wants a low cost transportation system and therefore controls the price. They try to offset the difference with subsidies but don't have the money. The strong unions set the price on wages and a lot of policy. Yeah, can't work.

Don't get me wrong, I know low-cost public transportation run (or controlled) by governments can work - but it requires a relatively non-corrupt society and government to happen.

Of course here, even privately run transportation isn't really private. That's why the prices are so low (and quality so poor) while the prices on just about every other consumer item is so high with at least some relatively quality items as well.

 

[arlean]

Thanks, El Queso, for your thoughtful analysis. Don't ever be intimidated by the naysayers on this forum. I always appreciate your posts. As usual, good job!

Living in Argentina has been such an economic education for me. Some people think it is so third world, but I don't really think so. I used to think that the government here was corrupt, but now I know the corruption is all the way to the root. It is the culture and few question it but most people want whatever they can get free, and either don't realize their fellow citizens are paying, or they don't care as long as they get theirs. That really is stealing. Those people who head for the train without stopping at the ticket office are thieves, though few here would call it that. Lack of integrity is accepted.

I could be wrong, but I think that integrity will never come to Argentina until someone begins. I decided it will begin with me and perhaps a few more of us who realize. I don't take advantage of the free stuff--although I do have subsidies with utilities, etc., but I don't deliberately take advantage because I know nothing is free. Some Argentines have to pay for what I take, if not out of pocket, then through inflation as government produces the money to pay for stuff. And inflation is the cruelest tax of all because it takes from the poor as well.

I'm not finding fault with those who have little choice though. It seems to me that no matter what government touches, it ruins. I don't mean just in Argentina. I know a lot of people think the government should take care of everything but there is too much human tendency to steal for it to work. If nothing else, politicians who handle the money will steal it if the opportunity is there. This is why a hammer in the States can cost $300 (or more) if on a government contract, because the politician gave the contract to his nephew. Stealing! But covered up by contracts. That is thievery just as much as piling on the subway without paying is stealing.

Bless your sweet wife for pointing it out. I never noticed that myself and I ride the train occasionally.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Arlean, you appear to have been listening to too much Ted Cruz (in reality, even 10 seconds of Ted Cruz can warp your mind - look what it did to the citizens of Texas). Governments can run things well but not, apparently, Argentine governments. The Santiago Metro, under concession to a private entity, runs perfectly, is spotless, and covers far more of Santiago and vicinity than the Subte does of Buenos Aires - in fact, it's more than double the size: http://tinyurl.com/b4x737r. Chile, though, has low levels of corruption that help make it work.

In California, where I spend most of the year, Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) is a separate government, with its own elected officials (who draw only a modest salary; a friend of mine is one of the directors, as they are called). While we do have some problems - union workers are currently on strike, but they more often threaten to do so than actually carry it out - the system is spotless and modern though it's nearly 40 years old now, and pays its own bills. I doubt, unfortunately, that such a system would work in Argentina because of corruption and the abuses of electoral politics there.

 

[Matiasba]

Its ok that they not pay!! you have the train enterprize winning a lot of money, not only of subsidios, they do gain a lot of money!! so whats the deal if some poor people for whom this money represents something monthly dont pay? integrity?!?!? this people have to travel from far away to make money to eat!! if they could have some way to not pay its ok!! it has always been like that, we re not in europe train isnt the tgv or something similar, its just a simple way of transport, picks people in one place and puts it in other. It works fine, these people dont need more. We just cant expect europe levels of transportation with the social panorama this country has. We have a lot of poor people, we cant think of a modern train. Subsidios is a way to nationalize public transport, and both government and enterprize know very well that those people do not pay.
It has always been like this, the ones who can pay, pay, if you need to save that money, you just dont pay.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Its ok that they not pay!! you have the train enterprize winning a lot of money, not only of subsidios, they do gain a lot of money!! so whats the deal if some poor people for whom this money represents something monthly dont pay? integrity?!?!? this people have to travel from far away to make money to eat!! if they could have some way to not pay its ok!! it has always been like that, we re not in europe train isnt the tgv or something similar, its just a simple way of transport, picks people in one place and puts it in other. It works fine, these people dont need more. We just cant expect europe levels of transportation with the social panorama this country has. We have a lot of poor people, we cant think of a modern train. Subsidios is a way to nationalize public transport, and both government and enterprize know very well that those people do not pay.
It has always been like this, the ones who can pay, pay, if you need to save that money, you just dont pay.

Why, then, does Santiago have packed trains on which everyone pays, and its considerably more sophisticated system is expanding into many more neighborhoods every year, including the poorest parts of the city? Why can Chileans afford to pay for their system, at a far higher level of service?

 

[Matiasba]

because they have a less corrupted society. "saltearse el molinete" aka not paying the train is a tradition here, you have to go waaaaay back to the tango days to understand why happens. With the colectivos, however, is much more uncommon, and you have an expanded net of colectivos that works very well in my opinion. I complain about the smog and the noise, but I recognise the frequency its ok, even at night.
Transportation has been one of the nodal policies this government had to get out of the crisis, and with the exception of Once accident it had worked fine to the people.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

because they have a less corrupted society. "saltearse el molinete" aka not paying the train is a tradition here, you have to go waaaaay back to the tango days to understand why happens. With the colectivos, however, is much more uncommon, and you have an expanded net of colectivos that works very well in my opinion. I complain about the smog and the noise, but I recognise the frequency its ok, even at night.
Transportation has been one of the nodal policies this government had to get out of the crisis, and with the exception of Once accident it had worked fine to the people.

So, occasional fatal crashes are a small price to pay for a backwards and undercapitalized transportation system? Patrons of the Sarmiento prefer to risk their lives, then?