Are The Italians To Blame For Argentina's Demise

[Lamb]

@Lamb

1. identifying "Italians" as a seperate hate group is racism. There is case law on this. The same as "Irish" or "British" etc etc for the purposes of racial equality and discrimination legislation. There are numerous other examples and its simply splitting hairs to pretend otherwise.

2. your words ..."Argentina is the country with most Italians after Italy, far more than Brazil" - but as far as I can find you are simply wrong

Italian Brazilians are the largest number of people with full or partial Italian ancestry outside of Italy. According to Wikipedia at least.

3. You equivocate .. "im not saying italian heritage is the only cause of problems in Argentina" but that is exactly what the thread starts with saying and what a previous poster also said and you appear to be rushing to defend this and associate yourself with racist sentiments.

No one would deny that ethnicity in relevant in explaining culture - but I say it is a minor distraction in explaining economic and social development and the province of bigots

Im not rushing to defend anything or anyone completely when i say i agree with something partially. If i put 'im not saying this...' its to clearify that i am not saying what the person before me just said. Brazil has more people, but compared to the entire population, Argentina definitly is more Italian.

 

[germano]

I love the Sopranos! I'll watch them all over, one day!
I even learned new "Italian" words such as "gumah" (comare, lover) and how "ziti" is any short format of pasta in the US.

#foodpolice

When I see them eating baked ziti on the Sopranos I get hungry every time

 

[Matiasba]

Im not rushing to defend anything or anyone completely when i say i agree with something partially. If i put 'im not saying this...' its to clearify that i am not saying what the person before me just said. Brazil has more people, but compared to the entire population, Argentina definitly is more Italian.

In 1890s financial crisis, there were lots of italians that had migrated to Argentina that went to (south) Brazil. They were the majority, they were more the ones that left than the ones that stayed, BUT,

The italians that stayed in Argentina represent, more or less, the 46%, while the italians that went to Brazil approximately the 15% of its population.

 

[Joe]

Imagine if Argentina had been settled by Norwegians. There're be extensive oil production with the revenues going into a sovereign wealth fund. Wine would start at 20 dollars a bottle instead of 2, the food would still be awful, expats would not be coming here to retire but to try and get a work visa and Argentina would be a major force in the winter Olympics.

 

[Joe]

To the OP, I strongly recommend a book, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, is from a german sociologist, Max Weber. Basically stands for a religious component from protestants that explains the spirit of the Capitalism, different from the catholics. Protestants developed some kind of ethic, linked to bussiness, that goes perfectly well with the new capitalist society, while the catholics stay in a more traditional one. That could explain why the protestants countries developed more than catholics.



http://en.wikipedia....t_of_Capitalism



About the italians, it is said that the problem with the immigration in Argentina was, firstly, that the argentine consulates in europe in that time were looking for english and scandinavian and in stead brought spanish and italians, and then, that the ones that came werent educated. On the contrary, they were anarchists, socialists, troublemakers, agitators, with a very combative political spirit, lots of them deported, or had been in jail.
Also the majority of italian immigration went back to Italy, they were called "trabajadores golondrinas" they came here in harvest time, and with the 1890 crisis half of them went to south Brazil. Thats why Brazil had more italian immigration than Argentina (not in percentage), they have stolen lots from us!!

camebriu: I agree with Lamarque, we already talked about Chile and Argentina; although they have a very different socio-economic model, both Argentina and Chile have very similar social indicators. It has always been the south cone, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay, the most developed part of the continent, and it still is. Check out informal job numbers and compare to Peru, Colombia, etc.
About education, I dont guide myself from indicators but from the protests we have in these past years, (do you know Camila Vallejo?) Big protests, riots, thousand and thousand of people protesting noy one day or two, but years!!! Something must be wrong!!!
Lots of chileans come here to study, much more than argentines go to chile to study, so the educational university system is clearly better in Argentina.

It's interesting that you said that because my father used to give speeches about "The Protestant Work Ethic" to the rotary club, etc. when I was a wee boy...

 

[Girino]

Imagine if Argentina had been settled by Norwegians. There're be extensive oil production with the revenues going into a sovereign wealth fund. Wine would start at 20 dollars a bottle instead of 2, the food would still be awful, expats would not be coming here to retire but to try and get a work visa and Argentina would be a major force in the winter Olympics.

....and it would be plenty of sturdy tall blond lumberjacks carring logs on their shoulders. Sounds like a deal to me.
And in the plus side, you would just have to trade reindeers for nice weather. I am in!

 

[Abby&Bebe]

I like this thread. I think Joe raised a valid quesstion and this is coming from someone with Italian ancestry. I wonder if the people who were offended would also take issue with the insinuation that Argentines as an ethnic group, somehow have a set of negative traits that cause their country not to measure up with the likes of Europe and North America. I think in the US we are so used to looking down on anything Spanish-related that we no longer consider it politically incorrect to say anything disparaging about any country or person that can be identified as "Hispanic." While I agree with Joe that political correctness can sometimes curtail dialog, I think these types of subjects should be addressed tactfully. That's why I don't subscribe to calling people or countries "third world." As a psychologist, I can't help but be aware of the negative impact of some words and how connotations can build up over time and change the meaning of previously "harmless" terms but I digress. By the way is Rich One Chilean? His defense of Chile seemed very impassioned, something odd for someone who resides in Argentina. Sorry about the typos, writing from a tablet.

 

[Joe]

The term "third world" has evolved over time. Now it means a poor country. The PC term is "developing country".

Originally third world meant non-aligned. During the cold war the good guys were the first world, the commies were the second world and everyone else was the third world. Most of the originally third world countries were poor and that's how third world evolved to meaning poor countries.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Imagine if Argentina had been settled by Norwegians. There're be extensive oil production with the revenues going into a sovereign wealth fund. Wine would start at 20 dollars a bottle instead of 2, the food would still be awful, expats would not be coming here to retire but to try and get a work visa and Argentina would be a major force in the winter Olympics.

Well, we'll see about that. I fly to Oslo tomorrow to have a look at http://www.caminito.no/ (with acknowledgment to noruega argentina).

 

[ajoknoblauch]

The term "third world" has evolved over time. Now it means a poor country. The PC term is "developing country".

Originally third world meant non-aligned. During the cold war the good guys were the first world, the commies were the second world and everyone else was the third world. Most of the originally third world countries were poor and that's how third world evolved to meaning poor countries.

All these terms are, and always have been, gross oversimplifications.