Argentina Cancel Its Participation On The Cruzex (Again)

[ajoknoblauch]

I am so sick and tired of Argentines thinking that every single person in a uniform is sent from hell to torture young inocent people. Wake up!!!!! Every single member of the military has the same virtues and faults as any other member of the society where she/he comes from.. nothing more, nothing less. They don't come from a far away galaxy, they come form the same villas, pueblos, or big cities as any other person. Rich and poor, honest and liar, moreno and white, catholic and atheist.
I just think it's so closed minded to pretend that a newly graduated leutenant or corporal, born in 1993, has the same set of ideas of a 1970's General (who's probably already dead)...
:angry:

I agree with you to some extent, but Argentina's dictatorship was the worst of the worst on the continent (Guatemala exceeded it in sustained bloodthirstiness and genuine genocide, but that's a different case on another sub-continent). Continuing to investigate and prosecute the responsible parties makes sense, but placing blame on fresh young faces is definitely out of line. The latter deserve respect unless and until they violate their pledge to serve the country.

 

[felipebrazil]

Gentlemen, I know the wounds will be healed with respect to dictatorship (past). Everybody knows that Petrobras and other companies know that a huge potential in a near future for investments in energy (gas - Petroleo pre-salt).
The Brazil is already every two months discovering new reserves., But I now wonder if Argentine also has that potential, not deverial best guard like Brazil doing?

 

[scotttswan]

Gentlemen, I know the wounds will be healed with respect to dictatorship (past). Everybody knows that Petrobras and other companies know that a huge potential in a near future for investments in energy (gas - Petroleo pre-salt).
The Brazil is already every two months discovering new reserves., But I now wonder if Argentine also has that potential, not deverial best guard like Brazil doing?

If the results in Brazil, Uruguay and the Falklands are to be believed there's most likely oil around the Argentine coast too. How much and how viable it would be to drill for is another question.

 

[Matiasba]

Ayayay...this really is the limit.

There are more people who support PRO than the small band of sons of the last dictatorship. I suspect you know this but it is the easiest, (i.e. laziest) way to smear PRO. As I have already mentioned I personally know many voters of other parties who now vote PRO because the see them as an option to counter law and order issues and support an international re-engagement with external investment partners.

Me, I am not sure, like all parties here talk is loud, symbolic gestures are big and bright but important things like manifestos and costed plans are non-existant. I prefer them to the Peronists because like the military they have played their part in strangling this country.

I judge people by their own actions, not by their families actions. I'll judge PRO by theirs. I can't quite get you to be honest it seems, you start out by saying PRO are not military then once a few awkward questions are out there we're back to smearing them as military. I can't follow. It's silly to suggest that they are somehow anti-democratic.

On a previous thread you seemed to suggest that only certain companies who have affiliations with PRO members should be banned and not every company active in that era. You're picking those to castigate and those to elevate without any fair and equal criteria.

You can't pick and chose who the victims are. The dead are dead, there no more dead or less dead, no more valid deaths, just deaths.

I'm afraid you aren't really interested in moving on progressively, just a victory parade for the current strain of peronism, it's limiting for you and for the country, it propogates and endless stream of cyclical boom and bust, both in terms of society and economics. Peronism can only artifically inflate then suffocate, the military have no place in govt, only standing outside on ceremonial guard.

This time I really am out because we're having a circular discussion here that has limited value.

All thye people who got beneffits from the dictatorship, because every government is for some sector, are with the Pro. So maybe not all the pro votes are pro-dictatorship, but surely all pro dictatorship vote for pro.

And what I said about some companies being punished, I think you got me all wrong. If some company gets an important multimillionaire contract with an illegal government, and they overpaid it, or if some company allowed to socialize its debt (and privatize its profit) because you re friend of the people in power who by the way got there by force, if you dont want rebellious workers, or a strong sindicate, and you call the police to this people get killed, well, in my dictionary is guilty. Now if you made a lot of money besides the government and you have nothing to do with it, and you dont have any kind of fear to cal the police to repress, you can go free.

 

[Matiasba]

I agree with you to some extent, but Argentina's dictatorship was the worst of the worst on the continent (Guatemala exceeded it in sustained bloodthirstiness and genuine genocide, but that's a different case on another sub-continent). Continuing to investigate and prosecute the responsible parties makes sense, but placing blame on fresh young faces is definitely out of line. The latter deserve respect unless and until they violate their pledge to serve the country.

ajo, simply, the new faces dont believe that the dictatorship was terrible. They dont believe in human rights violations. They dont believe in desaparecidos. I tell you cause I worked for Pro in 2004, in those years called "Compromiso para el cambio" and I presented weekly informs of the legacy of the dictatorship, and they used to put big cross to what I said. They didnt see a continuity on the recurrent crisis this country had, being the first under the dictatorship. They put a cross on it when I talked about the debt and how magically multiplied for six in the six years of the dictatorship, they thought Menemismo was Ok while it was the bigger poverty factory this country ever had, ending like we all know in 2001, where lots of people won a lot of money, ojo.
So as i said in other thread, you just have to match the fact that people won a lot in huge crisis and the fact that crisis happens, what if they provocated? well the enormous list of companies and private sector behind Macri, the enormous list of foundations, or capitals in general, are in fact the people who got beneffits from these crisis. Macri is right wing, he has the same entrepreneur view than his father (in fact there was a differenece, during the last years, were Franco Macri declared some things that he liked from Kirchnerismo, but that was because he wanted to fight his son)...

People who destroyed this country bringing totally new levels of poverty, delinquency, corruption, etc, the people that provocated the worst crisis this country had, that people have a very clear candidate, Macri.

Ps: I wrote a message before this one that it doesn appear.

 

[cuore]

ajo, simply, the new faces dont believe that the dictatorship was terrible. They dont believe in human rights violations. They dont believe in desaparecidos. I tell you cause I worked for Pro in 2004, in those years called "Compromiso para el cambio" and I presented weekly informs of the legacy of the dictatorship, and they used to put big cross to what I said. They didnt see a continuity on the recurrent crisis this country had, being the first under the dictatorship. They put a cross on it when I talked about the debt and how magically multiplied for six in the six years of the dictatorship, they thought Menemismo was Ok while it was the bigger poverty factory this country ever had, ending like we all know in 2001, where lots of people won a lot of money, ojo.
So as i said in other thread, you just have to match the fact that people won a lot in huge crisis and the fact that crisis happens, what if they provocated? well the enormous list of companies and private sector behind Macri, the enormous list of foundations, or capitals in general, are in fact the people who got beneffits from these crisis. Macri is right wing, he has the same entrepreneur view than his father (in fact there was a differenece, during the last years, were Franco Macri declared some things that he liked from Kirchnerismo, but that was because he wanted to fight his son)...

People who destroyed this country bringing totally new levels of poverty, delinquency, corruption, etc, the people that provocated the worst crisis this country had, that people have a very clear candidate, Macri.

Ps: I wrote a message before this one that it doesn appear.

And this is exactly why this country will never, not in a million years, ever, reconcile.... not if things are either derecha=nazi=golpista / zurdo=socialista=monto
Not if every single group blames the military gov, the Yankees, the Brits, Ks, Pros, Radicales, Menem or any other figure of their preference, instead of facing the problem and solving it.

Your ideas may have not been heard at Pro. Well, that's why democracy exists. Create your own party, join an existing one. Now you can make your voice heard anywhere of your preference. Just don't discredit those who don't advocate next to you. People shouldn't be obliged to think like you do, even if up to your standards they are completely mistaken. Maybe if your ideas are good enough and you are compelling someone might join you and you could win your own election. But if you don’t, don’t go around bitching, play by the rules and accept that other people have a different mindset.

Disrespecting them will only invalidate your speech. That’s what Dublin2ba’s approach was all about. If you can’t get that, we are back to square one

I'll leave you this link http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1635597-la-joven-negra-que-salvo-a-un-racista-de-una-feroz-golpiza (I know it's form La nacion but you can find it anywhere) so you can reflect a little bit on reconciliation
Thanks for listening

 

[mc kenna]

I think what Matias is trying to say is that if you were killed by the ERP or Montoneros you were killed but a little less dead?since apparently you had it coming.The desaparecidos count is 9800 plus not 30000 unless they count my dog that never came back home back in 81

 

[cuore]

I think what Matias is trying to say is that if you were killed by the ERP or Montoneros you were killed but a little less dead?since apparently you had it coming.The desaparecidos count is 9800 plus not 30000 unless they count my dog that never came back home back in 81

I thought I had some serious acid humor but girl, you have it coming!!!!

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Military exercises often compose of too much testosterone and become a world class "Dick Measuring Contest."

True. We typically showed up with our jets and our own yard-sticks as the measuring devices of the other countries were too short.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

ajo, simply, the new faces dont believe that the dictatorship was terrible. They dont believe in human rights violations. They dont believe in desaparecidos. I tell you cause I worked for Pro in 2004, in those years called "Compromiso para el cambio" and I presented weekly informs of the legacy of the dictatorship, and they used to put big cross to what I said. They didnt see a continuity on the recurrent crisis this country had, being the first under the dictatorship. They put a cross on it when I talked about the debt and how magically multiplied for six in the six years of the dictatorship, they thought Menemismo was Ok while it was the bigger poverty factory this country ever had, ending like we all know in 2001, where lots of people won a lot of money, ojo.
So as i said in other thread, you just have to match the fact that people won a lot in huge crisis and the fact that crisis happens, what if they provocated? well the enormous list of companies and private sector behind Macri, the enormous list of foundations, or capitals in general, are in fact the people who got beneffits from these crisis. Macri is right wing, he has the same entrepreneur view than his father (in fact there was a differenece, during the last years, were Franco Macri declared some things that he liked from Kirchnerismo, but that was because he wanted to fight his son)...

People who destroyed this country bringing totally new levels of poverty, delinquency, corruption, etc, the people that provocated the worst crisis this country had, that people have a very clear candidate, Macri.

Ps: I wrote a message before this one that it doesn appear.

So, the facts of their birth place them beyond all hope?