Argentina Cancel Its Participation On The Cruzex (Again)

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

I don't know, for a start it wasn't FpV who brought down the govt in 83, i have friends who are old enough to have been around and it's a little bit grating for them to see FpV claim this victory when it wasn't theirs to claim. They were elected in the background of a crisis, Nestor took an appropriate course of action and I can understand why. However since his passing those who have followed have proven themselves devoid of productive, progressive ideas.

The best they can manage now is to rustle up the bogeyman of the military past. PRO are the military, voting for them and the tanks will role, it is an insult to the majority of the citizens of Buenos Aires who do vote for them. Personally I think it is a disgraceful tactic. It is anti-democratic.

Look at Northern Ireland, we have former jailed terrorists in government with the people they sought to overthrow. It works, to a certain extent, because there is an acceptance that society must heal and move forward. All La Campora and FpV have to offer using the past as a devisive bogeyman.

it is healthy to recognise and forever remember the evil acts of the dictatorship but it is equally as important to remember that the idea of "Victory" is flawed completely if it is not an inclusive victory. You cannot simply accuse those you disagree with a being golpistas, militars and other anti-democractic slurs simply because they do not share your ideology. To do so displays insecurity in your own position (if I cannot defeat them in argument, then innuendo will do), it shows a lack of respect. A functioning society must have space for different ideologies and points of view.

From a regional perspective this should apply also. The "they'll look after us" attitude is pathetic, subservient and lazy. It would be somewhat excusable if there were any benefits to the Brazilians but since the current govt's response to their military patronage is further restrictive trade policies, they don't seem to benefit at all.

Note, none of this will change with Massa in 2015. For those of you who didn't have the alarm bells ringing already, I bring to your attention his meeting today with Moyano and the CGT. Peronismo will live on.

 

[Matiasba]

D2BA I agree that you can not grow as a society if youre blaming every time to the militars, but theres a huge wound to cure and sweeping under the carpet is not the solution. , Argentine society during the 70s was cutted into two halves, it was like a civil war, and the militars won, by killing massively, torturing, violating human rights, etc. After that the victims of Terrorismo de Estado would not recover until this government. For the first time theres an interest from the people in power to get over the crimes, put in jail the guilty people, return identity to the robbed babies, have big memorial policies of that war (it wasnt a war, it were 5 thousand man armed with guns, versus the State, with tanks and planes and intelligence and the support of neighbouring countries and the US).
The only way to get over it is by justice, the ones that are found guilty, pay with jail. This is the first government that annuls Punto Final and Obediencia Debida laws, and the Indulto too. For the first time the people involved in that brutality will pay. I think this is the way to get over it.

 

[scotttswan]

D2BA I agree that you can not grow as a society if youre blaming every time to the militars, but theres a huge wound to cure and sweeping under the carpet is not the solution. , Argentine society during the 70s was cutted into two halves, it was like a civil war, and the militars won, by killing massively, torturing, violating human rights, etc. After that the victims of Terrorismo de Estado would not recover until this government. For the first time theres an interest from the people in power to get over the crimes, put in jail the guilty people, return identity to the robbed babies, have big memorial policies of that war (it wasnt a war, it were 5 thousand man armed with guns, versus the State, with tanks and planes and intelligence and the support of neighbouring countries and the US).
The only way to get over it is by justice, the ones that are found guilty, pay with jail. This is the first government that annuls Punto Final and Obediencia Debida laws, and the Indulto too. For the first time the people involved in that brutality will pay. I think this is the way to get over it.

And the terrorists on the other side who bombed civilians are they being put in prison too or is that being swept under the carpet?

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

Well, undeniably it has an appeal but does it heal society? I doubt it.

Ask yourself, what is the objective for incarceration. Punishment or rehabilitation with a view to prevention. If it is the former then it must apply to everyone in society, for each and every crime their must be a punishment leaning towards incarceration. If it is the latter then the question must be asked are we locking people up who pose a risk of re-offending. I guess there are certain "leaders" in these crimes who deserve to be behind bars but a further extension of legal prosecution could be seen as counter productive on a societal level. On a non-legal basis your own constant smearing and innuendo (Macri is a militar) is also an irresponsible slur, it is not conducive to the growth and stabilisation of democracy.

I myself am torn, I see murderes in govt in Belfast and it is hard to swallow yet I look around I see the obvious benefits of a healing society. Ojo...Ireland has a long long way to go in the process, but we are much further ahead than Argentina in this respect because we have started the journey.

Again, the problem posed by La Campora and FpV is they have illegitimately claimed a triumph which they didn't achieve (the return of democracy). In doing so they further split the country and attempted to paint the opposition (non kirchnerismo) illegitimate.

 

[cuore]

Too bad that the families of those bombed, shot at and tortured by the jóvenes idealistas will never get over it by having justice and those who are guilty will never pay any jailtime .
Just wondering... What's left for them besides forgiveness???

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

See....two way street or no way street.

 

[Matiasba]

And the terrorists on the other side who bombed civilians are they being put in prison too or is that being swept under the carpet?

I really dont know. They should. But the terrorism and its bombing wasnt that important during the dictatorship. They were important in 1970, 71 and 72. In 73 when their leader, Peron returned, they slowed down and after Peron died, in 1974 and 1975, Lopez Rega and the AAA had controlled them totally. There is an interview of Videla saying in 1975 that guerrilla were defeated. Again, you just cant compare forces. It was an abuse.
But yes, the terrorism was important as a legacy of Cordobazo. The thing is, we dont see the victims families claiming for anything today, that should be an evidence.

 

[cuore]

Yup, you are right. We can't compare forces but the victims of ERP & Montoneros were just as murdered as those I the nunca más list. Wait, I mean the ones that were actually desaparecidos

 

[Matiasba]

Well, undeniably it has an appeal but does it heal society? I doubt it.

Ask yourself, what is the objective for incarceration. Punishment or rehabilitation with a view to prevention. If it is the former then it must apply to everyone in society, for each and every crime their must be a punishment leaning towards incarceration. If it is the latter then the question must be asked are we locking people up who pose a risk of re-offending. I guess there are certain "leaders" in these crimes who deserve to be behind bars but a further extension of legal prosecution could be seen as counter productive on a societal level. On a non-legal basis your own constant smearing and innuendo (Macri is a militar) is also an irresponsible slur, it is not conducive to the growth and stabilisation of democracy.

I myself am torn, I see murderes in govt in Belfast and it is hard to swallow yet I look around I see the obvious benefits of a healing society. Ojo...Ireland has a long long way to go in the process, but we are much further ahead than Argentina in this respect because we have started the journey.

Again, the problem posed by La Campora and FpV is they have illegitimately claimed a triumph which they didn't achieve (the return of democracy). In doing so they further split the country and attempted to paint the opposition (non kirchnerismo) illegitimate.

Kirchneristas enemies, historically, traditionally, are the sectors that impulsed militaries coups and the people they governed for. Thats why they say golpistas to oposicion. I dont even think theres a posibility of a coup, I dont think Macri and Carrio are militars. But the sons of the people who supported Militars are now with Macri or like Macri.

About incarceration, its futile in one sense, it wont change peoples beliefs, if they tortured they probably still think they made it fine. If they killed a montonero, they probably not regret it. But the incarceration in other sense it serves a purpose, is for the victim, to make them rewarded.

Remember this is the first and only government who didnt negotiate with the militars. I guess after Kirchnerismo, this wound will be a lot better than it is today and than it was with Alfonsin and Menem. It will be a lot less intense, so we can look to the future, with a restorative sensation.

 

[Matiasba]

Yup, you are right. We can't compare forces but the victims of ERP & Montoneros were just as murdered as those I the nunca más list. Wait, I mean the ones that were actually desaparecidos

Montoneros and ERP did kill people, but their target wasnt an anonimous philosophy student who sympathyses with the left, it were generals, and important people, their kills were totally symbolic, thier bombs were totally for important generals, or Rucci, or Aramburu. Yes, they killed less important people not by bombing but defending themselves or some driver who accidently was there with the bomb.
In quantity and in quality, you just cant compare victims in one side and another. One was a massive kill, other was much more picky, a defensive position, resistance, etc.