Argentina Ranked #160 In World For Economic Freedom

[Joe]

I dont know about that list, I know how goverments here in Argentina ended with economic freedom policies. Both, the dictatorship and Menemismo, applied policies of apertura comercial and eliminated protectionism, in all its forms.

One very bad policy that Menem undertook was keeping a dollar peg. This made it difficult for domestic Argentine producers to compete with imports. If he had allowed the market to determine the peso's rate, the devaluation would have allowed thousands of Argentine producers to stay in business.

Another example of where the Argentine government has blundered economically. If they just stayed out of economics, Argentina would still be a first world country.

 

[camberiu]

One very bad policy that Menem undertook was keeping a dollar peg. This made it difficult for domestic Argentine producers to compete with imports.

One thing that I find hilarious is that the locals here refer to this peg as an example of "free market gone wild" when it is the exact opposite. The peg to the dollar, or "convertibilidad", was one of the greatest examples of massive government intervention in the economy. It is basically a government imposed price control. It is as an explicit act of central planning as one can come up with. Yet, the local intellectuals refer to this as a "neo-liberal" policy.

 

[camberiu]

We have a tradition of free education that is the envy of ever south american country.

I grew up in Brazil and I do not recall us envying Argentina on anything. We would look at Argentina mostly as a consolation. As bad as everything was in Brazil, we could always look at Argentina and feel a little better, cause the "hermanos" were always more fucked than us. Since that dumbass war in 1982, which no Brazilian to this day can begin comprehend what drove the "hermanos" do something that stupid, to the disgraceful economic policies that came afterwards, we never looked at Argentina with envy. With relief yes, as it is always feels good to know that someone else is on the same pit of shit as you, but never with envy.
I think Latin America stopped looking at Argentina with envy back in the 1950s. Yet, the Argentinians keep this illusion alive even today.

 

[esllou]

I'm absolutely shocked by this list....











....there are 17 countries worse than here???? :lol:

 

[Rich One]

The Pro K will claim that all these institutions work for the multinationals , they hate Argentina like Christine Lagarde with the IMF, their rating parameters are biased otherwise how could Greece and Spain have better ratings than Argentina?? It's a CONSPIRACY.
Why didn't they rate Lehman Bro's correctly before the crash.

However foreign investors read these ratings and will place their chips in countries that are more reliable.

 

[nicoenarg]

I dont know about that list, I know how goverments here in Argentina ended with economic freedom policies. Both, the dictatorship and Menemismo, applied policies of apertura comercial and eliminated protectionism, in all its forms. What happened? the debt grew like no other time in this country, more poverty, deindustralization, unemployment, and with the menemismo, the worst crisis this country ever lived. Thats where this country went with economic freedom policies. In fact, those were the only two goverments in history to apply that model, the first one started under a dictatorship, using the force, anti democratically, and the other one, in a context of hiperinfaltion, by other kind of force, it had to continue that plan.
I know that economic model works in some countries, but Im talking about Argentina, and it didnt. In Chile, the most developed country of the south cone, they have that model, since Pinochet (also by the force). It worked for them, but they still have lot of poverty, and the social differences are much more bigger in Chile than in Argentina. In fact, the lower classes in Chile are more restricted than here. A LOT. They have practically no access to a decent health and education. Here you have some public hospitals, like the Clinicas that are VERY prestigious, and, for example, the chances for a working class man to go to university are huge here, better than anywhere in Latin America, and even some countries in europe. We have a tradition of free education that is the envy of ever south american country. In countries like Brazil or Chile, where social differences are bigger, only the upper classes have access to universities. That is well being.

Debt before the crash was almost exactly at the same level as it is today when it comes to debt-to-GDP.

http://baexpats.org/topic/21797-argentine-debt-to-gdp/page__hl__debt

The above link is a discussion on Argentine stats. Read explanations by expatinowncountry, he's an actual economist, unlike the rest of us.

 

[trennod]

I think both you and Matias would be hard pressed to make a case that the top 5 or 10 countries in the list are suffering from any kind of massive oppression from their "corporate overlords".

I think most Argentinians would prefer to live like New Zealanders or the Swiss, who rank #4 and #5 respectively on the list of "countries that allow corporations to rule freely and screw the small fish" than to live like Equatorians and Ukranians, who like Argentina, keep the "evil corporate/capitalist overlords" on a tight leash.

I think this pretty much sums it up. How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and rebut that? Good post.

 

[trennod]

One thing that I find hilarious is that the locals here refer to this peg as an example of "free market gone wild" when it is the exact opposite. The peg to the dollar, or "convertibilidad", was one of the greatest examples of massive government intervention in the economy. It is basically a government imposed price control. It is as an explicit act of central planning as one can come up with. Yet, the local intellectuals refer to this as a "neo-liberal" policy.

The only thing I will pull you up on camberiu is that I think most of the sane locals (ie non Ks) realise well and good that Brazil has totally overtaken Argentina. Many are still a little behind the 8 ball on Chile, however its more from ignorance than anything.

 

[PhilinBSAS]

I think this pretty much sums it up. How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and rebut that? Good post.

Who Is that directed at? Who has to rebut what? This is a boring and predictable thread. Many of the people who post up on this have demonstrably closed minds and just love to go into repetitive tirades about how much better anywhere is other than Argentina and nothing orginal or new to offer.

The OP quoted from a right wing think tank based in Washington and someone else commented that this "freedom index" isnt a good measure of social welfare.

I happen to agree and referenced some sources which asserted there was not a good correlation with this index even with GNP pc and both right and left wing sources found it muddled and confused.

That was enough to fall off the trolley and start the usual canting about this that and the other being better than Argentina. So what. This so called "Freedom index" is not a good measure or social welfare. Someone care to put forward a cogent reasoned and well argued alternative position - preferably with sources? So far its just yah boo sucks I'm noticing.

The second poster also had something to say about the potential for capitalism to turn into corporatism which I would have thought the "anti-government libertarian right wing which is often well represented on this forum might have spotted. I was going to mention that if anyone cares to read Adam Smith they will see that he had much the same point to make i.e the need for regulation to reduce monopolistic tendencies and market domination that act against maximising social welfare something Smith was strong on. Ironic that his name should be misused by this "Adam Smith Institute" or whoever they are who put out this so called "Freedom Index" since he was in favour of a regulated market, and the use of tarrifs to equalise the market, and progressive taxation and the protection of infant industry for that matter. But that doesnt fit in with the same old same old that comes up time after time by the usual ranters on here so little point in mentioning.

Just because I or anyone else have a differing but equally legitimate opinion doesnt mean I or anyone else has to start apologising for Peronism, K ism the state of the Argentine economy now then or when ever.

But off we go on all the usual stuff. Boring and predictable prejudiced ranting triggered off by the slightest hint of non-conformity or original thought. and boy dont these usual suspects love to groom each other on here - psychological self counselling for misfits who are either homesick or stuck in boring jobs which allow them the time to indulge in nauseating self congratulation.

And who says that there is only one professional economist on this board? And what does that prove anyway.

The only thing proved from the sterile postings here is there are some very narrow and limited minds with a profoundly anti Argentine agenda who like to dominate this forum

There is a quote from Goebbels I remember once being referenced in conversation - something like "dont bother to discuss things with people just reinforce their prejudices". Something similar to that. Well I cant be arsed to find it but seems apt enough to me to describe the prevailing mindset. Not a lot of difference then with the bus loads of K supporters who arrived at Mar del Plata - Equally obtuse.

Let me know when you want to discuss and I'll decide whether I want to say anything.

 

[Vagrant Violet]

Overall, I find it incredibly sad on many levels.

A detail that caught my eye in a major way was the inflation rate (CPI) of "only" 9.8%. You know what, guys? I'm not an economist, but that strikes me as a major error, not talking about a typo. I'm a law abiding person with a formal vocation that chose to come here only 4 yrs ago (although I had spent a few month in early 2005 beforehand). I was not naive enough to believe that this was a Shangri-La of US$5 steaks I still keep reading about, with a considerably high literacy rate, rich history and with a democratically-elected female president (a novelty which even my home country has yet to do) which must have been an obvious indication that gender inequality and sexism must no longer be a major issue.

Quite the contrary. I'm fairly young, naive at times, but even then I was not a complete fool. Apart from an open mind, I came with significant savings in dollars, and a genuine love and esteem for this country which very few locals could ever wrap their heads around. Fast forward 4+ yrs later. I'm still here. Not going anywhere (mostly due to a passionate commitment to an Argentine spouse, as opposed to the country... That'd be pretty counterintuitive by this point).

My relationship with this country has evolved. Our "honeymoon" was over a long, loooooooong time ago. Nothing is legally tying me here. And despite absolutely everything, I still have a love for Argentina, but it's quite different now. It's wiser and more complicated (just like a personal relationship) that took time. What pains me the most is not even the pelotudos here that one encounters on a daily basis, but rather this is a country with so much POTENTIAL that I could scream! And you know what? I've come across more jackasses here that I care to remember, Argentines, in fact. I've also met some people who are very dear and important to me, who are honest folk who simply want to live a humble life and contribute to society what they can (even if it means just making an honest living and treating others well). But overall, I still believe that Argentina and the Argentines DESERVE BETTER!

No, it's not perfect in a lot of ways, it doesn't have every valuable natural resource in the world, and people can be obnoxious, lazy idiots anywhere in this world, regardless of status, education, wealth, blah blah blah. It's because (personaifying here), the country is sitting on its ass, bemoaning its circumstances, playing the convenient and quick-fix blame game (the British, the Ks, capitalism, the illegal bolitos and paraguitos, and so on). Atrocities happen on any spectrum of the scale, but one could either acknowledge that it was horrible and attempt to slowy recuperate and LEARN FROM MISTAKES... Or, as far as I can see, continue the short-sighted solutions, be an eternal victim, not acknowledge a single lesson learned, and continue it's perpetual f*ck up cycle while it's left farther and farther behind in the dust.

I'm not pinning my hopes on any report by the beginning of 2014 to be more promising. Just hoping that the next blow will still be reasonbly tolerable.


(Argentina, I love you, but I'm starting to think that I'm not IN love with you anymore. Things change. There are times I feel like you need to grow up, and we need to see other people... but we can still be friends)