Argentine citizenship for foreigners?

[Ceviche]

Ok, I am at the office and Court opens in 20 minutes.
15 cases are waiting for sentence.

So Mr bajo, does it mean that these 15 pending cases will get ""sentence"" within "3" days! I am asking this basis your previous comment few weeks ago. That a sentence must be given in 3 days!

I am just intrigued. As to when were all the reports for each case finished/filed in court, and as to why no sentence given within "3 days" so far!

 

[Bajo_cero2]

So Mr bajo, does it mean that these 15 pending cases will get ""sentence"" within "3" days! I am asking this basis your previous comment few weeks ago. That a sentence must be given in 3 days!

I am just intrigued. As to when were all the reports for each case finished/filed in court, and as to why no sentence given within "3 days" so far!

No, only one of them is going to have a decision so soon.
The others have some small issues and they are going to take more time.

Regarding the cases I already won, 13 of them got a sentence within 3 daýs after that the prosecutor opinion was enacted. The other 2 delayed more because the judges had something innovative to say and those decision were about ten pages.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Yesterday a judges rejected 2 cases that were already finished (ready for a decision: the reports replied, the honest way of living evidenced, the certificates added, etc). It was predictable because who is the but and he earned my respect for the way he administrated justice because he respected the due process and took a desicion at the end without restricting the defence rights or making procedure ambushes or delaying without reason the desicion. Many judges, instead, try to avoid to enact a decision violating the defence righ and that´s illegal. Now I have to appeal. Regards

 

[Ceviche]

Yesterday a judges rejected 2 cases that were already finished (ready for a decision: the reports replied, the honest way of living evidenced, the certificates added, etc).

Thats a bit worrying Mr Cero. We dont want any personal details but can you explain us what grounds the case was rejected? What loophole, the judge found? Was it a genuine loophole or the judge was just acting funny and trying to trouble the client?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Thats a bit worrying Mr Cero. We dont want any personal details but can you explain us what grounds the case was rejected? What loophole, the judge found? Was it a genuine loophole or the judge was just acting funny and trying to trouble the client?

The judge enforces the abolished law, simply like that:
http://www.pagina12....2012-07-15.html
(he is papavero)
Nowadays I use the peremptory challenge -to ask for a change of judge without giving any explanation- (recusación sin causa) to avoid him. So, he is neutralized.
However, I m going to appeal before the federal chamber and I also have the SC.
Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

The 2 cases I mentioned were appealed.

Last week I won another 3 cases. 2 of them were expats.

I got 3 new rejections on cases just started. They were super difficult cases and I was pushing the envelope a lot. 3 of them arrived without visa (ilegal entry), they didn´t speak Spanish and they have only one year in Argentina. However, they have the best chamber in the country so my strategy was, precisely, that they were rejected fast so I can go straight to the chamber. My clients agreed with this strategy.

All the rejections were not in Capital Federal.

Regards

 

[Ceviche]

Thank you Mr Bajo for the consistent updates.

 

[arlean]

This is an incredible thread. Fifty-five pages. WOW. Bajo_Cero2 I add my thanks to others for your generosity in posting here. We are privileged. I posted before that I had applied for citizenship. I was recently in the office of the judge to check my file (with my attorney's assistant who cannot see the file unless I show up to ask for it). I am told we are at the end and my hearing should come up in one month--maybe two.

However, when I started this I had to be able to read a paragraph in Spanish. That's a piece of cake for me. I know enough Spanish to get whatever I need here and I am comfortable . . . BUT . . . I am not conversational. When locals talk to me in Spanish I can get the gist of the subject (much of the time) but that's it. Now I was told at the judge's office that I have to speak Spanish now and will have to demonstrate that I do by a "simple conversation" with the judge. I said that my problem is understanding spanish speakers and they said if I don't understand the judge, I wont get it. The theory is how can I take the oath if I don't understand Spanish and know what it says.

Panic has set in. I am killing myself working on Spanish. Today I am taking off because I have not cleaned house in two weeks plus my brain is numb. I don't know if I can do it. However, I really want to be conversational anyway and it sure is a great motivation. But it appears that the language requirement has changed--unless it's just this judge. I don't know but that is the current status. I have a friend in another part of Argentina who is at exactly the same stage that I am in the process and he wrote me yesterday there is no way he can be conversational by his hearing and he is just "leaving it in God's hands" rather than try to do the impossible. So there you have it. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[toulouse]

This is an incredible thread. Fifty-five pages. WOW. Bajo_Cero2 I add my thanks to others for your generosity in posting here. We are privileged. I posted before that I had applied for citizenship. I was recently in the office of the judge to check my file (with my attorney's assistant who cannot see the file unless I show up to ask for it). I am told we are at the end and my hearing should come up in one month--maybe two.

However, when I started this I had to be able to read a paragraph in Spanish. That's a piece of cake for me. I know enough Spanish to get whatever I need here and I am comfortable . . . BUT . . . I am not conversational. When locals talk to me in Spanish I can get the gist of the subject (much of the time) but that's it. Now I was told at the judge's office that I have to speak Spanish now and will have to demonstrate that I do by a "simple conversation" with the judge. I said that my problem is understanding spanish speakers and they said if I don't understand the judge, I wont get it. The theory is how can I take the oath if I don't understand Spanish and know what it says.

Panic has set in. I am killing myself working on Spanish. Today I am taking off because I have not cleaned house in two weeks plus my brain is numb. I don't know if I can do it. However, I really want to be conversational anyway and it sure is a great motivation. But it appears that the language requirement has changed--unless it's just this judge. I don't know but that is the current status. I have a friend in another part of Argentina who is at exactly the same stage that I am in the process and he wrote me yesterday there is no way he can be conversational by his hearing and he is just "leaving it in God's hands" rather than try to do the impossible. So there you have it. I'll keep you guys posted.

Hi Arlean--I just got my citizenship (with Bajo Cero's help!) about 2 months ago, and 2 of my friends also got theirs in the past few weeks. The Spanish test format is at the judge's discretion (or more accurately, the judge's clerk--I never met the judge, even at the swearing in). Mine was really easy--and I consider my Spanish to be at a low-intermediate level. The first part was transcription--they gave me a page from the "codigo civil" and I had to copy a paragraph. Doesn't get much easier than that. The second part the clerk read a paragraph from the "codigo civil" and asked me to write it down. Fortunately I didn't have to understand it because it was all legalese. She read slowly and repeated it. So that part was easy too.

My friends had similar experiences--one speaks Spanish fluently, and the other hardly at all. Bottom line don't expect it to be too hard--my impression is they just want to confirm that you have a basic grasp of the language. Good luck!

 

[La Fleur]

Dear Arlean

You have my sympathy – I was very nervous too. Fortunately I only had a few hours notice that the day had arrived for my ‘test’ so I didn’t have time to be a total wreck.

I understand that this experience (like most in this country) is different for everyone - different with each judge, each client, the weather, etc. My ‘test’ consisted of a short conversation with the judge’s secretary (not the judge). I had my test straight after a friend and she was asked quite different things from me. It was in the secretary’s office and there was a lot of noise in the outer office and the secretary spoke quietly and very rapidly.

You need to remember that if your test is like this, it is a test of conversational skills – the ability to ‘get’ what the person is saying and respond appropriately. You obviously can manage this since you live here and interact with people all the time in castellano. Just use your normal coping strategies in the ‘test’. Here are some things that helped me which you could practice beforehand (in castellano, obviously):

· I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear that – I am a little deaf. Could you repeat that please?​

· I don’t understand XXXX [a word]. Could you write it down for me? [Take a little notebook and pen in and offer it. You probably can read the word.]​

· Do you mean XXXX? [Repeat as much of the question as you can to get them to clarify.]​

Other helpful strategies are:

· Practice answers to obvious questions, such as “Why did you come to BsAs?” and “What do you do here?” or “Do you have family here?” This isn’t like a language school test – it is just a clerk asking you obvious stuff so they can complete a form.​

· Instead of putting your nose in a book, ask a local friend to ask you questions about yourself (at their normal speaking speed) for practice so you are used to hearing the questions – porteño style.​

· For your answers, say as much as you can – slowly. Use up the time.​

If you can say stuff appropriately, you will pass. This is not a test of grammar or vocabulary, or of having a perfect accent. While understanding questions spoken rapidly (ie porteño style) can be difficult, concentrate on interacting with the person in castellano whether or not you understand everything they said. They can’t fail you then
.
And remember that if they fail you your lawyer could appeal and a clerk untrained in assessing language skills might have to justify their decision. But if they pass you they just type a short document saying you have passed your test, you sign it, and it’s all over. Which option do you think they will prefer?

Best of luck
FleurBA