En Negro

[Guillo]

Also, I must add that those paying in Negro are not doing so to cover their basic needs (eat) but they are business owners that are trying to make a business out of it. They do nothing but play with workers desperate need to cover their basic needs (roof, food and health) which in many cases end up being served by the same infrastructure that some 'businessmen' here continue to complain about.

 

[citygirl]

The wink indicated that I was writing in jest but you did say "People paying en Negro usually usually keep that difference, only paying the worker what he would have paid before (workers part plus his discounts) and pocketing the rest"

Your statement implies (well actually asserts) the business owner is busy pocketing the "extra" money that they get from having workers en negro. And while that certainly may be true for some, in many businesses, that money is going right back into the business to keep it afloat.

Seriously - I promise you, at least in the businesses I know of personally that have gone to en negro - they're not "playing with the workers" as you stated. They're trying to keep their business afloat, pay their employees and yes, make a living. I don't know any small business owners that are rolling in money. Usually outside of their living necessities, every spare cent gets put back into the business to make it a viable and hopefully a success.

There are lots of reasons that businesses may be en negro from doing it to get extra money in, to employee request to having no other option. I'm simply pointing out that anyone who thinks it's always done just to screw over works has a naive and limited viewpoint. And probably has not employed anyone here.

 

[Ashley]

I guess I just can't feel any sympathy for business owners (and maybe that's because I'm not in their position). If you can't afford to pay your employees a fair take-home wage AND put them en blanco, get less employees.
In my case, my take home salary is exactly the same as the salaries for similar jobs I have seen en blanco (and yes, I apply for them all the time). There is no way my boss could put me in blanco and pay me any less for what I do...He would have to cut his own (generous) salary or employ less people (both do-able). The point is that employers here have a choice...to expand their businesses/profit margins much faster than elsewhere...at the expense of their employee benefits. I think its slightly ridiculous to assume that putting employees in blanco should impact that person's salary...
I currently know two fully qualified lawyers (both with only 3/4 years practical experience, granted) earning less than 2,000 pesos per month...en negro. They can't afford health insurance, need the experience and are getting fully taken advantage of. I do understand that some businesses would go under (certainly in their current form) but I really think that this is one of the issues partially responsible for such a massive divide in the wealth of a population
Perhaps there should be more salary standardisation as well as harsher penalties for businesses with employees en negro.

 

[Guillo]

The wink indicated that I was writing in jest but you did say "People paying en Negro usually usually keep that difference, only paying the worker what he would have paid before (workers part plus his discounts) and pocketing the rest"

Your statement implies (well actually asserts) the business owner is busy pocketing the "extra" money that they get from having workers en negro. And while that certainly may be true for some, in many businesses, that money is going right back into the business to keep it afloat.

Seriously - I promise you, at least in the businesses I know of personally that have gone to en negro - they're not "playing with the workers" as you stated. They're trying to keep their business afloat, pay their employees and yes, make a living. I don't know any small business owners that are rolling in money. Usually outside of their living necessities, every spare cent gets put back into the business to make it a viable and hopefully a success.

There are lots of reasons that businesses may be en negro from doing it to get extra money in, to employee request to having no other option. I'm simply pointing out that anyone who thinks it's always done just to screw over works has a naive and limited viewpoint. And probably has not employed anyone here.

Sorry, but while companies are trying to make a business out of it, hiring people en negro, they are depriving the workers of their basic rights, so I have no sympathy at all. If you can't pay good salaries, and all your obligations, I (and most) really don't care whether you stay or go. Why would we care?

You are not entitled to have earnings while at the same time exploiting people that will take anything to make ends meet, while you are relaxing in Palermo having drinks and trying to make cash for your home office.

I mean, its excellent for you, but don't expect us to be so sorry because you moved in to try to cash in on people's need to work and inflation makes it harder.

If you need to work in negro to make your business work....then you probably need rethink your business.

 

[citygirl]

For the umpeenth time - my employees are not en negro. And the vast majority of expats I know are trying to do everything en blanco because most of us have either a) auditors back home, b) a healthy fear of the repercussions of avoiding taxes or c) a fear of gov't crackdown for not doing things by the books.

Oh and this "
You are not entitled to have earnings while at the same time exploiting people that will take anything to make ends meet, while you are relaxing in Palermo having drinks and trying to make cash for your home office. "
That's just plain ignorant. And biased. If it's directed at me - I am not sitting back and saying I'm "entitled" to anything. I'm out there working. We only have earnings if we deliver. Our clients don't automatically pay us for showing up. Second, I don't exploit anyone. I pay my employees well, give my employees all the benefits and do EVERYTHING in blanco and everything is paid to the government that should be. As far as spending my nights drinking in Palermo - you know what I'm doing most nights - working my ass off. And what I'm doing most mornings - yep, on conference calls working. I finished my day at 11:00 p.m. last night. I started my day this morning at 5:15 a.m. Most people who own or manage businesses aren't out there partying away and living the high life. And wait - am I supposed to apologize for wanting and trying to make money for my company? Um..of course I am trying. That's what businesses do.

Really Guillo - talk to your fellow Argentines that own businesses. Ask how many of them do everything en blanco? Answer - not very many. Or wait - are all the Argentine business owners I know exploiting their fellow citizens? Is every business out there to screw their employees?

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN. You don't or won't get that. Here's the reality - people don't pay taxes and flaunt it. Businesses don't pay taxes in many cases but are more discreet about it. AFIP has to put out public service ads begging people to pay their taxes. People don't do it, businesses don't do it. Some because they don't think it applies to them (and hey, how many members of this board are paying personal income tax here?), some because they can't and some because they just won't.

You keep wanting to push this all back on the business owners. Let me ask you - those employees en negro - are they paying their taxes? Bet most aren't.

I would love for the system to be fixed. Because as one of those employers playing by the rules - it sucks. For every person or business that doesn't pay their taxes, those of us that do get screwed.

yes, I'm passionate about it. yes, it pisses me off. and yes, I would love for a better playing field.

 

[French jurist]

Nothing is black & white, and employers are at the mercy of juicios laborales, even if everything was done right.

One argument for the employers to make black is also to pay the various propinas (to the Customs, to the city's inspection agents, ..) : whole system is wicked, vicious circle.

 

[ben]

IMHO, Guillo, you gave yourself away by this telling phrase:

If you can't pay good salaries, and all your obligations, I (and most) really don't care whether you stay or go. Why would we care?

Because this is what it all boils down to. Your understanding of them capitalists exploiting the workers, and caring for nothing but their own good, is nothing but a projection of your own attitude. You've just made it clear, that even if noone is getting "enriched", and is going nuts and has to work in negro just to stay afloat (and BTW give people jobs who would otherwise have none), their plight is none of your concern. "Why would we care?"

One person elects to employ another. He/she wants a job done, and is willing to pay money to get it done. Someone else wants/needs money, and is willing to work to get it. They trade - a classic sale, except longer-term. It's as simple as that.

Except that because it's a longer-term transaction than selling a used car, and this system needs to support a lot of people's lives, some social responsibility has been introduced. The employer has to adhere to some standards. Nobody is disputing that.

But there are two human beings here. One is working hard and getting a salary, and another is working hard and providing a salary. They are working equally hard (unless citygirl is lying). But one is risking their name and reputation, and very possibly taking on debt. If the operation goes belly-up, one of the two goes home and starts looking for another job; the other has some clean-up to do, just to move on. That is why, if it does work out, the employer takes more money (if there is), when everyone's been paid.

But according to your vision of the world, (a) it is perfectly acceptable for you not to give a damn about how difficult things may be on management end, obligations to you must be met according to law etc etc, (b) it is perfectly acceptable to you to bitch about how terrible it is when the same management gets more than you've earned, notwithstanding (a). This is what we call entitlement. You owe nobody nothing, indeed "Why would we care?", but them rich owe you something - quite a lot, actually.

P.S. In Argentina, of course, you can add that telling phrase "according to law", because you can hide behind the law; it is on your side. This is why things look here as they do. Because far from just protecting workers, the system here provides far more incentive to workers to just show up and be at work, than to actually work.

 

[jb5]

This is so sad, but it's just the same old rant. What a mess Argentina is. Christina has promised empenadas for all but will never be able to deliver because Argentina keeps shooting itself in the foot.

Employees imagine great riches on the part of business owners, they're all sipping imported liquor in Palermo on the backs of their employees. They are all doing something wrong to only be able to pay what they're paying. Those that can't pay up should go away and leave the space open for employers with a better business model, the ones who can pay big salaries and still make a big profit. Everyone knows that's easy! These business owners just need to get smarter.

Yet these articulate posters and their friends keep taking these crummy jobs. Im confused as to why they just keep getting caught up with these low life, grubbing employers. They keep
working for these awful capitalist thieves. Huh? Why don't they work for a company that profit shares and gives great pay and benefits? In my Silicon Valley hometown there are many, and they are expanding all over the world. Christina sends delegations there to get companies interested in setting up shop. Yet few are doing so, and boards like this play a role.

The massive divide in the wealth of the population indeed. Does anyone study economics in Argentina? A professional, solid middle/upper middle class is a huge step in closing that gap. Yet the prevailing attitudes, not to mention taxes and corruption, has kept the companies that
create this out of Argentina. They are all over the world, all over LAM, but they avoid Argentina like the plague.

So while India, China and Eastern Europe, Chile and Brazil enjoy the growing middle class and ever improving lifestyles, we're having the same old conversation about why lawyers are underemployed and bad, bad employers are keeping Argentina poor.

Does Argentina have a death wish?

 

[Ashley]

This is so sad, but it's just the same old rant. What a mess Argentina is. Christina has promised empenadas for all but will never be able to deliver because Argentina keeps shooting itself in the foot.

Employees imagine great riches on the part of business owners, they're all sipping imported liquor in Palermo on the backs of their employees. They are all doing something wrong to only be able to pay what they're paying. Those that can't pay up should go away and leave the space open for employers with a better business model, the ones who can pay big salaries and still make a big profit. Everyone knows that's easy! These business owners just need to get smarter.

Yet these articulate posters and their friends keep taking these crummy jobs. Im confused as to why they just keep getting caught up with these low life, grubbing employers. They keep
working for these awful capitalist thieves. Huh? Why don't they work for a company that profit shares and gives great pay and benefits? In my Silicon Valley hometown there are many, and they are expanding all over the world. Christina sends delegations there to get companies interested in setting up shop. Yet few are doing so, and boards like this play a role.

The massive divide in the wealth of the population indeed. Does anyone study economics in Argentina? A professional, solid middle/upper middle class is a huge step in closing that gap. Yet the prevailing attitudes, not to mention taxes and corruption, has kept the companies that
create this out of Argentina. They are all over the world, all over LAM, but they avoid Argentina like the plague.

So while India, China and Eastern Europe, Chile and Brazil enjoy the growing middle class and ever improving lifestyles, we're having the same old conversation about why lawyers are underemployed and bad, bad employers are keeping Argentina poor.

Does Argentina have a death wish?

I honestly don't think there is that much of a choice here...which is why I keep coming back to the issue of government control.
People must work to live and, in the absence of fair-paying, legally contracted positions, workers end up taking what they can get.
There are fair employers (and I really do sympathise with employers like Citygirl who is at the receiving end of what a sacrifice it is here to keep everything above board) but the fact remains that these employers are few and far between...making things hard for the workers that do want to be legal and fairly paid. If there was any kind of control or enforcement in this country, these kinds of employers would be eliminated.
I can remember when my company were interviewing applicants for a general assistant position. One of the candidates made it clear that she was not willing to be a "monotributista" and wanted to be employed en blanco. She was immediately crossed off the short-list and those in charge were surprised at her "mala onda"! I think it would be great if we could all do what she did and just refuse to get sucked into that system but most of us just cannot afford to...
And it's like everything...The construction companies and architectural studies bashing down historical properties to build shitty buildings that cannot possibly meet quality regulations. So long as the government lets these people eek the very last buck out the system no matter who they screw over in the process, long will it continue...

 

[Guillo]

Oh and this "
You are not entitled to have earnings while at the same time exploiting people that will take anything to make ends meet, while you are relaxing in Palermo having drinks and trying to make cash for your home office. "

That's just plain ignorant. And biased. If it's directed at me - I am not sitting back and saying I'm "entitled" to anything. I'm out there working.

Well, not particularly pointed at you. But a bunch of people come over, trying to make a business here, and expect:

1. To pay the employees third world salaries
2. To be shielded from...I dont know what. Law? Taxes?
3. To have everyone kissing at your (collective) feet because you decided to come over and try to make a business running here.

My point about "taking drinks in Palermo" is so that you understand, that all the distress you might have, is NOTHING compared to not being able to pay for food, health and a roof, which is what people is working for.

So excuse me if I'm not simpathethic. But you didn't start a business here out of the kindness of your heart, you did because you could make earnings out of it.

to apologize for wanting and trying to make money for my company? Um..of course I am trying. That's what businesses do.

I wasn't expecting otherwise. But you seem to have unrealistic expectation of the workforce, and the system will mutate to meet your expectations.

THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

It might be if you expect to work exactly like in the US, where you can fire someone for any and all reason without paying a dime.

You keep wanting to push this all back on the business owners. Let me ask you - those employees en negro - are they paying their taxes? Bet most aren't.

Sorry to tell you, but managing taxes and salaries are the responsibilities of business owners. Those employees en negro are paying IVA though the food they are buying, for instance.