En Negro

[Guillo]

This is so sad, but it's just the same old rant. What a mess Argentina is. Christina has promised empenadas for all but will never be able to deliver because Argentina keeps shooting itself in the foot.

I don't know for how long have you been here, but workers rights are nothing new or invented by Kristina.

Yet these articulate posters and their friends keep taking these crummy jobs. Im confused as to why they just keep getting caught up with these low life, grubbing employers.

Unluckily, the alternative is starving.

Does Argentina have a death wish?

Not really. But I think it should be clear by now that we wont be bending over and thanking you for service.
The only way in which in can work, is when its good for BOTH employee and employers.
You are here as guest. You can either adapt to the climate or plain leave.

The world wont change to fit your business goals.

 

[Guillo]

IMHO, Guillo, you gave yourself away by this telling phrase:

Because this is what it all boils down to. Your understanding of them capitalists exploiting the workers, and caring for nothing but their own good, is nothing but a projection of your own attitude.

Its nothing but what I've experienced in 20 years working in the Argentina market. And the small and medium business are usually the worst at this.

a) it is perfectly acceptable for you not to give a damn about how difficult things may be on management end, obligations to you must be met according to law etc etc,

Exactly. If I wanted to care about that I'd be starting a business myself.

(b) it is perfectly acceptable to you to bitch about how terrible it is when the same management gets more than you've earned, notwithstanding (a).

I never said or implied that. Its perfectly acceptable for them to be making more. They have to care about the business after all. But they dont get to bitch because its hard, you are making a salary (or profit shares) to compensate for that.

P.S. In Argentina, of course, you can add that telling phrase "according to law", because you can hide behind the law; it is on your side. This is why things look here as they do. Because far from just protecting workers, the system here provides far more incentive to workers to just show up and be at work, than to actually work.

Yes, according to law. Or you expect to come as an foreign tourist, start a business in a foreign country and suddenly have the whole system to change just for you?

 

[jazrgz]

Guillo, im sorry but ppl like you is what´s wrong in this country !! instead of demanding from our government to fix this system so no one (foreign or domestic) could run a bussiness in negro without facing a penalty you lash out at a very specific group (foreigners) of bussiness owners while you mention nothing about our local ones (if you really are a local you should be very aware of the fact this last group is for the most part in negro, one way or another). I dont know this, but you really sound like a kirchnerista. This is exactly how they act. They ignore the root of the problem so it cannot be fixed and then select a very specific group of people to blame for it (most of the time, like in this case, this chosen group would have no responsibility over the problem in question).
This is exactly why our country cannot evolve !! we simply dont provide solution to our problems, some because they benefit from them, others because they dont care (sound familiar? ) and others because they dont know any better (our educational system makes sure there´s always millions of argentines in this category, they just dont know any better..sad but true ! incidently this last group is always kept under poverty..because the many many problems we have are never solved or dealt with)

 

[Guillo]

jazrgz:

First of all, I never singled the expats. I talked businessmen in general, both local and expats. Mostly so expats know what their counterparts do here, and why the workforce reacts like they do.

The particular problem with expats, is that they expect to pay third world salaries, with first world conditions, and pin it on "lazy workers".

There are some things that I wish would change, but just "bending over" to foreign investment does nothing for the local population in itself if they are not willing to pay what the workers are due.

Me (and the rest of the workers) wont sacrifice their rights, no matter how much they bother guys to make business here. Why would we? I personally have no interest in becoming china with exploited workers.

Now, about taxes, of course I want everyone to pay their part. But what I read here is using "en negro" as a possible business strategy.

I'm not blaming businessmen for all of Argentina's trouble (like some people do around here with workers) but I know a bunch of things that CAN be pinned on them and that's what I'm doing.

 

[jazrgz]

Workers (well, not them but they´re very corrupted unions) are to be blame, i completaly agree that this problem is a cancer to our ppl and that every single worker in this country should have all the rights provided by law ! We dont disagree in any point, but the problem is not bussinessmen (again, local or foreign), they put up a bussiness, some well intentioned and willing to follow all the rules and many others just simply trying to take advantage of the system and of many workers who will take any job under any condition just to receive a check monthly and try at least feed his family. I believe everyone here condemns this last group. But when you rant against bussiness owners that this will never solve anything ! as long as the system allows it and in many cases even encourages it, ppl in general and bussiness owners in this particular case will take advantage of it (again, some ppl will, many others choose to act according to the law even when they could very easily not)
So, in order to fix a problem, you need to make sure you attack the real source if you ever expect it to be resolved. In this case Unions and the government (executive, congress and judges). They all have the tools to fix this, they just choose not to ! and that´s what really f*** up here. they choose not to fix it and millions out there suffer for it !!
If the system was fixed, regardless of how bad a person you are and your evil intentions of putting up a bussiness just to profit as much as possible by violating the workers rights and taking advantage of them in every possible way, you would be able to do it, it´s simple ! with a will though out and well controled system, croocked bussines owners (well, crooked anything) would have to face consecuences and so, there wouldnt be worker´s rights being violated in the first place.
In this country, in our recent history, rather that attach the root cause of our problems, we encourage them and praise the ones who actually profit from it and deepens them even more. SHAME ON US argies for this !!

 

[Ashley]

jazrgz:

First of all, I never singled the expats. I talked businessmen in general, both local and expats. Mostly so expats know what their counterparts do here, and why the workforce reacts like they do.

The particular problem with expats, is that they expect to pay third world salaries, with first world conditions, and pin it on "lazy workers".

There are some things that I wish would change, but just "bending over" to foreign investment does nothing for the local population in itself if they are not willing to pay what the workers are due.

Me (and the rest of the workers) wont sacrifice their rights, no matter how much they bother guys to make business here. Why would we? I personally have no interest in becoming china with exploited workers.

Now, about taxes, of course I want everyone to pay their part. But what I read here is using "en negro" as a possible business strategy.

I'm not blaming businessmen for all of Argentina's trouble (like some people do around here with workers) but I know a bunch of things that CAN be pinned on them and that's what I'm doing.

I'd be really interested in some examples of these expat companies that come over to pay employee's a "third world wage"... Because this just sounds like another massive cop-out...another way of avoiding doing anything about the problem.
Of course, there are a lot of companies that have out-sourced to Argentina because it is cheaper, but as far as I am aware, they pay the going-rate, if not more. I don't know of any foreign-owned companies trying to undercut the wages offered by Argentine companies. If anything, the people I know working for international companies are among the best paid here...and are in blanco. All of the jobs I applied for (all offering positons in negro), were all Argentine-owned companies.
Jazrgz is spot-on...The govt needs to control all companies that do business in this country.

 

[Guillo]

I'd be really interested in some examples of these expat companies that come over to pay employee's a "third world wage"... Because this just sounds like another massive cop-out...another way of avoiding doing anything about the problem.
Of course, there are a lot of companies that have out-sourced to Argentina because it is cheaper, but as far as I am aware, they pay the going-rate, if not more. I don't know of any foreign-owned companies trying to undercut the wages offered by Argentine companies. If anything, the people I know working for international companies are among the best paid here...and are in blanco. All of the jobs I applied for (all offering positons in negro), were all Argentine-owned companies.
Jazrgz is spot-on...The govt needs to control all companies that do business in this country.

Ashley, when I talk about "third world wages" I'm comparing equivalent positions in the US market. The examples I usually bring is one I know of (IT, 1/3rd as much) but I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens in other kind of jobs.

On the other hand, I totally agree that the govt needs to control. I'm sure that many of the problems here are because law is not applied equally to everyone (because of corruption), and that's what needs to change if we want to be a real country.

 

[ellbee]

I just hate it when the government uses my tax money to pave a street, to pay a cop, to teach a child, to build a hospital, to water the lawns in a park.......
We don’t need government services we need anarchy, chaos and dog s4it on the sidewalks.......

well, you walk around BUenos Aires and you see dog shit everywhere.
the the streets are never cleaned

so where does the money go? government officials pockets.
piece of cake.

and cops, are mostly corrupted.

 

[jb5]

Guillo, your posts always make me ponder. They reflect deeply held Argentine beliefs, yet I do believe there is a growing sentiment among educated young people that Argentina should join the global economy.

But as you don't want it to, can you tell me how you believe Argentina will address poverty and provide good jobs for it's people? It has the best possible worker's rights in place yet most are not making a living wage and it's getting worse not better.

You may not like foreign companies coming in and paying one- third of US wages but the reality is people line up to get those jobs and consider them great opportunities. There are no where near enough of these jobs for the people who want them like Ashley.

So where do you see future good jobs coming from?

 

[Guillo]

There's a growing sentiment about joining the global economy, but I'm not totally sold in being totally open to foreign interests, without prioritizing local interests. Otherwise, it will happen like it did before: industry totally destroyed, raising poverty.
For instance, the US is supposedly very open to outside commerce, but at the same time they have huge subsidies to farm producers.

I don't particularly mind about foreign companies paying 1/3rd of US salaries, unless they start playing the violin of how hard is to make business here because of local conditions. I mean, you are paying 1/3rd of salaries BECAUSE of local conditions!

One thing I don't care for is being cheap labor. I'd rather develop our industry and technology to be able to export high value added services, like IT development does.
I believe that Argentinians are very creative and can easily adapt to changing conditions, and well educated. And I've seen us working in multinational teams and always shine when compared to professionals of the rest of the world. That's what I'm interested in as a source of jobs, not just cheap labor.